[hondageek]

Hey guys, this is my first post here. I have a 2006 S2R800 that was having intermittent fuel pump issues that was making me crazy. I did the same repair to the flange that monster.orgy did. After I dug out the epoxy with a small flat blade screwdriver and a lobster pick (I'm from New England, that's how we roll) I found that 3 of the 4 wires fell out of their original solder. I cleaned them up and did a proper soldering job, poured a little JB Kwik weld into it, reassembled the flange after about 20 minutes, put the bike back together, and put fuel in it after a couple of hours. Runs like a champ now! The repair is super easy. I could probably do the whole job again in about 40 minutes if I had to.

 

[Mr.Muscle!]

Hey guys, this is my first post here. I have a 2006 S2R800 that was having intermittent fuel pump issues that was making me crazy. I did the same repair to the flange that monster.orgy did. After I dug out the epoxy with a small flat blade screwdriver and a lobster pick (I'm from New England, that's how we roll) I found that 3 of the 4 wires fell out of their original solder. I cleaned them up and did a proper soldering job, poured a little JB Kwik weld into it, reassembled the flange after about 20 minutes, put the bike back together, and put fuel in it after a couple of hours. Runs like a champ now! The repair is super easy. I could probably do the whole job again in about 40 minutes if I had to.

Did you figured it out by yourself or somebody guided you? I have the same problem, didn't start my chanpion for 3 months, a friend of mine said that the problem may be because of the pump, but the pump works well. I wait for a parcel for my bike it is a fuel pump.

 

[hondageek]

I saw the posts by monster.orgy in this thread. It seemed easy enough. Anyone that has an ounce of mechanical ability can do it.

 

[hondageek]

This is what it looks like after the gray epoxy stuff is removed and the wires resoldered. Both black wires and the red wire fell out once I could access the solder joints.

 

[siroadrunner]

I've been following this thread for a while now, and while my bike is better, I just replaced the pump again with a Fuel Pump Factory unit, hoping to get it back to 100% reliability. Wishful thinking. Now, I'm wondering if I crossed the supply and return lines to the pump. Another member tried to help, but the schematic is different. It looks like its just a straight loop through the injectors with no regulator. Does anyone here have a schematic, or pic, specific to the '06 S2R?..

 

[1rider]

I unfortunately have discovered this same issue with my new (to me) 749. I have decided to try the repair myself since it seems pretty straight forward. Can anyone confirm that the Permatex Motoseal 1 will seal and resist leakage? I have some on hand after rebuilding my R1 motor.

 

[Dvy3178]

Fortunately the only thing that's been affected on mine was the low fuel light. For some reason that particular wire out of the 4 of them didn't have a normal looking type of insulation. It looked like a scrap someone picked up off the floor honestly.. I don't know what the factory uses in that hole. Something the Devil himself invented I should think. Some types of RTV have better gasoline and ethanol resistance than others. Resistance is one thing, being submerged indefinitely is completely different. Permatex does sell an actual fuel tank repair two part epoxy type putty. If your repair requires digging out that whole mess all the way through. I don't know if I'd trust the putty for that kind of buildup. The affected wire(s) are usually somewhat close to the side that meets the fuel. I managed to dig out just enough to expose some healthy wire to attach to. I suppose my guess would be, if you dig down more than a quarter of the way through, perhaps try the permatex fuel tank repair putty. If you must go all the way through, I would use a bit of RTV with the best resistance rating you can find a build it up on the outside just enough to give it some structure. Then pile on the repair putty on the interior side of the tank. After the RTV has fully cured.

Just a thought.

 

[siroadrunner]

I've been following this post for a while, and now, once again, I am a wiring victim. This is the second time replacing the wiring. I was wondering why this configuration, with its obvious weak spot, even exists. Why didn't Ducati just pass the wires through this bulkhead, and seal the wiring with fuel proof sealer? the wires aren't the problem, the solder joints are..... I may just experiment and drill out the bulkhead, pass the wires, through whole, and connect to the harness, and pump, seal with the fuel proof epoxy, and reconnect....Any engineers on here that can tell me why this would not work?..is it dangerous? thoughts, please email me directly at siroadrnr@aol.com

 

[Dvy3178]

I've been following this post for a while, and now, once again, I am a wiring victim. This is the second time replacing the wiring. I was wondering why this configuration, with its obvious weak spot, even exists. Why didn't Ducati just pass the wires through this bulkhead, and seal the wiring with fuel proof sealer? the wires aren't the problem, the solder joints are..... I may just experiment and drill out the bulkhead, pass the wires, through whole, and connect to the harness, and pump, seal with the fuel proof epoxy, and reconnect....Any engineers on here that can tell me why this would not work?..is it dangerous? thoughts, please email me directly at siroadrnr@aol.com

What do you mean by drilling through the bulkhead? Are you thinking of drilling a fresh hole through a bare spot in the metal of the pump flange itself, or just drilling a new hole in the existing goop?

 

[siroadrunner]

Drilling through where the wires are poorly soldered, eliminating the fragile solder job the factory does. Run the wires straight through, from harness connection to the fuel pump. Fuel proof epoxy the inner and outer, to seal....

 

[Dvy3178]

Seems like your best bet. I don't remember any of the wires being soldered at that resin plug when I was dealing with mine. Poor design all around, but not as scary to me as the flimsy plastic disconnects they used at the time. Dorman sells them as some sort of PVC emissions fitting for Mercedes-Benz. So how they got the idea to use them as a high pressure fuel line fitting in a high heat, high vibration application is beyond me.

I wouldn't mind tracking down a couple of these type fittings. Seems like there must be a spot where you could fit a couple inside the plastic pump assembly directly through the flange as a last resort. Basically like a power terminal bulkhead fitting, but sealed and rated for permanent fuel submersion.

 

[siroadrunner]

Seems like your best bet. I don't remember any of the wires being soldered at that resin plug when I was dealing with mine. Poor design all around, but not as scary to me as the flimsy plastic disconnects they used at the time. Dorman sells them as some sort of PVC emissions fitting for Mercedes-Benz. So how they got the idea to use them as a high pressure fuel line fitting in a high heat, high vibration application is beyond me.

I wouldn't mind tracking down a couple of these type fittings. Seems like there must be a spot where you could fit a couple inside the plastic pump assembly directly through the flange as a last resort. Basically like a power terminal bulkhead fitting, but sealed and rated for permanent fuel submersion.

View attachment 225776

those look like a promising solution,..hope they're small enough for the spot,. and I wonder what they're called....thanks!!

 

[CartmanDuc]

Rebuild fuel pump harness with Ethanol resistant epoxy

I've benefited from many posts on this site and I hope the following might help someone. There's already an excellent post by monster.orgy which helped solve my fuel pump electrical problem. My post is intended to build on that mainly in regards to epoxy material selection.

I bought the bike new (2005 Monster S2R 800) and had no issues. As a testament to battery tenders I didn't need a new battery until 2013. When I bought a new battery, the gas tank had expanded and it wasn't possible to unlatch and swing the tank up to reach the battery. Instead the tank had to be removed by unbolting at the rear hinge. A longer fuel tank hinge support kit was installed by the dealer under special warranty covering the plastic fuel tank expansion defect.

To the point of this post: End of last summer the engine wouldn't start or would die off soon after starting. Then it completely stopped starting even though it cranked powerfully. After reading all the forums I followed this troubleshooting and repair sequence.

1. Does the fuel pump whir audibly when electricity is switched on? I couldn't be sure as I heard some sound. (In retrospect after the repair I know the complete sound wasn't there and what I was hearing could be an intermittent fuel pump.)

2. Does the engine work when engine starter fluid is sprayed directly into the air intakes? Yes it did. This lead me to believe it was a fuel delivery issue.

3. Is electricity reaching the fuel pump as measured outside the tank? Yes. The socket delivering electricity to the fuel pump isn't easy to probe but you can get creative with some wire and a small voltmeter. This meant it was time to take a look at the fuel pump assembly.

4. Empty the tank. I used a piece of clear vinyl tubing to siphon the tank first in the horizontal position and later while holding tank upright to get almost all the fuel out. The clear vinyl tubing was very helpful as I could see the fuel start flowing before accidentally swallowing any!

5. Remove the pump by unbolting the 6 allen screws. This is when I started taking photos of every step so I would know how to put it back together later. I also emptied a bit more remaining fuel and cleaned out some small particles from the tank.

6. Check the resistance of each wire from outside the tank to corresponding color on inside. These go from connector A on outside to either B or C as shown in photo below. The photo shows everything disassembled prior to starting reassembly. I also removed fuel filter to change while at it.

7. I discovered one black ground wire was intermittent when gently tugged. The epoxy was rotten and crumbling easily when scraped with a screw driver and the black wire came loose almost immediately.
The other wires seemed OK but they also came off easily after scraping away all the epoxy. So not only the epoxy was rotten but the solder (unless it was not soldered to begin with) was gone too. It seems to me unlikely that an electrical connection wasn't at least crimped. In either case I decided to solder all 4 joints and then encase the whole thing in Ethanol resistant epoxy.

8. I cleaned using a cotton stick and acetone nail polish remover until satisfied it was ready for soldering.

9. Soldering was quite tricky and I would advise against doing this unless you've done a fair amount of soldering before. Don't forget to clean up excess flux as it is corrosive and to measure the resistance after the soldering is done and before sealing it all up. I accidentally melted through the red live wire and this sent me off to thinking how to reinsulate it to avoid risk of sparking inside the tank! Fortunately the epoxy I would use to fill and encase the joints would also serve as insulation if applied around the wire.

10. I don't know how long a regular two part epoxy would last however given the effort of rebuilding the wiring joints I invested some time researching something that hopefully will resist fuel with Ethanol for a while longer. Here I list the 3 that I found.

(I) LOCTITE E-120HP HYSOL EPOXY ADHESIVE. This is what I ended up using. It's very chemical fuel and ethanol resistant. Apparently it's export restricted because of its aerospace uses, so should be well enough for the sorts of speeds of a Ducati! It's not the most readily available but is available in the 50ml small quantity cartridge for $12 online. You'll end up using only a fifth of it. Ideally you need to also have an applicator gun and mixing nozzle but I just hand mixed it. It's quite fluid so is very easy to pour into the joint space. After mixing sufficient quantity on a cardboard surface I used a drinking straw to suck up and then squeeze it into the joint space. Once it was a little less runny I also covered the electrical wires with it, hopefully insulating my frayed wire.

(II) PERMATEX 84334 ETHANOL RESISTANT FUEL TANK REPAIR SEALANT ADHESIVE. This is readily available at Autozone etc. However it is the consistency of hard putty and needs to be kneaded and warmed to better work with. I think it would have required care to apply in a way to ensure the soldered joints were sealed well.

(III) PERMATEX® MOTOSEAL® 1 ULTIMATE GASKET MAKER GREY. The technical data sheet says “The product retains effective properties in contact with automotive fluids, such as motor oil, gasoline, transmission fluids, alcohol and antifreeze solutions”. It might be easier to work with than the fuel tank repair putty.

11. Putting it all back together was quick. One broken steel clip needed fixing, so be careful when removing them. Also, I had ordered two of the special steel hose clamps with the new fuel filter but couldn't make them work as they do require a special tool to crimp properly, so I ended up using stainless steel hose clamps of smallest size from Home Depot. (This is where if you have issues I would recommend reading Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.) I used grease on the O-ring instead of a new one and so far it seems fine and not leaking.

The engine didn't fire up on first try which gave me that sinking feeling but worked like a charm once the fuel pump had primed sufficiently. The sound of the pump is loud and clear every time I switch on the electricity. So far it's looking good. Thanks again to the others who preceded me on this fix. If anything more develops I 'll post it here. Peace.

This is an update in June 2021 almost 7 years after my original repair in October 2015.
As part of a 12000 mile service I changed the fuel filter, and I also decided to take apart the fuel pump assembly and inspect the wiring harness. I had used Loctite E-120hp Hysol Epoxy Adhesive and while there was some corrosion after almost 7 years it was only on the surface and the inside was still solid as seen in photos below. I used Loctite E-60hp Hysol Epoxy Adhesive which is less runny to reseal the assembly again, and it was harder to work with so I would still recommend E-120hp. I put the whole thing back together and all is in working order. My guess is that it's prudent to inspect and if needed re-repair the assembly every time when replacing the fuel filter. A side note, the fuel line connectors and the fuel pressure regulator seemed hard to reconnect so I lubed the connections with oil lightly before reassembling so everything reassembled nicely.

 

[Gabor Kelemen]

This is an update in June 2021 almost 7 years after my original repair in October 2015.
As part of a 12000 mile service I changed the fuel filter, and I also decided to take apart the fuel pump assembly and inspect the wiring harness. I had used Loctite E-120hp Hysol Epoxy Adhesive and while there was some corrosion after almost 7 years it was only on the surface and the inside was still solid as seen in photos below. I used Loctite E-60hp Hysol Epoxy Adhesive which is less runny to reseal the assembly again, and it was harder to work with so I would still recommend E-120hp. I put the whole thing back together and all is in working order. My guess is that it's prudent to inspect and if needed re-repair the assembly every time when replacing the fuel filter. A side note, the fuel line connectors and the fuel pressure regulator seemed hard to reconnect so I lubed the connections with oil lightly before reassembling so everything reassembled nicely.

View attachment 227073

View attachment 227074

Hi Guys,
This year I bought a S2R 800 and have the same fuel issues you mentiod.
I will try to do the same procedure what you did with the Loctite.
I have already got the epoxy from the US
Wish me luck!
Happy New Year Guys!
Thanks!
Gabor

 

[DucatiTerminator]

Hi Guys,
This year I bought a S2R 800 and have the same fuel issues you mentiod.
I will try to do the same procedure what you did with the Loctite.
I have already got the epoxy from the US
Wish me luck!
Happy New Year Guys!
Thanks!
Gabor

Szia Gabor, Boldog új évet!

 

[Gabor Kelemen]

Szia Gabor, Boldog új évet!

Szia! Thx! BÚÉK!

 

[Gabor Kelemen]

Hi Guys,
This year I bought a S2R 800 and have the same fuel issues you mentiod.
I will try to do the same procedure what you did with the Loctite.
I have already got the epoxy from the US
Wish me luck!
Happy New Year Guys!
Thanks!
Gabor

Hey Guys,
I just wanted to let you know that during winter

I did the repotting on the modul with the Loctite.
Result looks good so far! No issue with the fuel pump!
Thanks a lot for the help!
If someone has the same issue and has some base electric skill then I'm encourage to fix it your own.
Take care!
Cheers,
Gabor

 

[Stiffy]

Had the same issue recently with my 2005 M620. Have to say the step by step guide originally by @monster.orgy and ably followed up by other posters was amazing. I’m not mechanical at all however I’m happy to have a go - I think anyone could do it if they follow the guide. I also watched a good YouTube vid by @DucatiNYC who is a guy I follow on there who is also mad keen on M620’s and had the same issue (except where he spills petrol all over his apartment 😂). I also used the Loctite E-120HP Hysol. Main trick bit was the soldering as that is proper fiddly.

 

[Gabor Kelemen]

Had the same issue recently with my 2005 M620. Have to say the step by step guide originally by @monster.orgy and ably followed up by other posters was amazing. I’m not mechanical at all however I’m happy to have a go - I think anyone could do it if they follow the guide. I also watched a good YouTube vid by @DucatiNYC who is a guy I follow on there who is also mad keen on M620’s and had the same issue (except where he spills petrol all over his apartment 😂). I also used the Loctite E-120HP Hysol. Main trick bit was the soldering as that is proper fiddly.

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Had the same issue recently with my 2005 M620. Have to say the step by step guide originally by @monster.orgy and ably followed up by other posters was amazing. I’m not mechanical at all however I’m happy to have a go - I think anyone could do it if they follow the guide. I also watched a good YouTube vid by @DucatiNYC who is a guy I follow on there who is also mad keen on M620’s and had the same issue (except where he spills petrol all over his apartment 😂). I also used the Loctite E-120HP Hysol. Main trick bit was the soldering as that is proper fiddly.

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Hey Stiffy,
Congrats for the fix, looks cool! 👍😉
Take care!
Cheers

 

[CartmanDuc]

Addendum to material selection: JB Weld and JB KwikWeld.

A number of folks have done the repair successfully using JB Weld or JB KwikWeld and a fair question is why I didn't consider those. The reason was that I couldn't find specific data anywhere in their data sheets on Ethanol, and that was my primary focus for longevity of the repair. The only statement they do have is “When fully cured, J-B Weld is completely resistant to water, gasoline, and about every other petroleum product or automotive chemical.” I even chased down some spirited -ha ha punny- discussions by distillers who were hesitant to use these in their distillation equipment for this reason.

Aspects to consider additionally may be: (1) these are both extremely strong and intended for permanent application and post machining, so once cured it may not be possible to access the solder points without drilling out should this be necessary in future. (2) JB Weld is less runny and would need care to ensure it has completely worked into the crevices around the wires, whereas KwikWeld comes with its mixer/applicator nozzle so may be easier to work with.

Related to this, there's an interesting video at

about JB WaterWeld (which is a putty in consistency so not best suited for this application). It shows email from the company saying that they have not tested for Ethanol and then shows a garage test in ethanol gas. I find this test a bit incomplete because (a) the temperature was near constant room/garage temp unlike the heat cycles from riding, (b) the amount of ethanol available to react in the gas was not being replenished as it would be during normal refills and may have run out or evaporated, (c) the original test is relatively short for 2 months but reports some reaction in a discussion later.

Based on not hearing any negative experiences from folks here, my impression is that JB Weld or KwikWeld and some other epoxies may be viable choices too. The bottom line is I don't think any of our epoxies will last “for ever” just some longer than others. What I would be very interested to see is any photos of the repairs several years afterward, to see how the different epoxies performed.

Peace!


PS. Not really topic of this discussion thread, but the whole Ethanol thing is a rabbit hole. I am now considering Caswell coating my plastic tank, and also machining a flange fitment (see

) as the O-ring fitment of the flange is becoming unreliable. Some are using -expensive- X-ring instead but I am leaning toward a more permanent solution. For now the flange fitment would be machined steel, as I can't yet 3D print the part from plastic which would need to be, wait...Ethanol resistant.