If you didn't already, take the MSF course:

http://www.msf-usa.org/

 

Not trying to be harsh, but if you have this kind of question, now probably isn't the best time to try riding in NYC. Your question is completely normal for someone just starting out--but putting yourself in heavy traffic sounds dangerous considering your skill level.

Btw, there's no set speed for taking a turn. Hypothetically you can take it as fast as the tires will let you. However, here are some tips for someone like you: grip the tank with your legs a little and let your upper body be loose. Don't pay attention to the racers draggin' knees right now. That's later on... As you enter the turn--Look where you want to go--turn your head into the turn. Look well ahead of your front tire--it will "slow things down" and allow you time to think about how to make the turn. Point your chest and lean your inside shoulder into the turn. You should be doing all of your braking (and then shifting down if needed) before the turn. As you are in the turn don't give the throttle or brakes any abrupt input--be smooth. If conditions are bad (roads are wet or there's sand or something on the pavement) then be even smoother or try not to touch the controls at all. At your level you might feel like you're going too fast through a turn--you're probably not--and can lean a little more to get through it without running wide. If you are going so slow through the turn that you're worried about falling over, then give it just a tad more throttle. Use the clutch and throttle together to BE SMOOTH. Ok, so you're making your way out of the turn at this point, and you can begin to gently give more throttle. Did I mention to be smooth?

I'm assuming you basically understand the idea behind countersteering, so I didn't go into that--just the body motions that should go with it for negotiating a simple turn. There are lots of ways to take a turn--believe it or not--but the way I described is the way that I learned. It's easy and pretty intuitive.

You should really find someone to show you the ropes around the city before you venture off on your own, once you're ready. I live outside of San Francisco (much smaller and easier to ride in than NYC) and it took me months before I tried it. My first trip, I went in with a friend who knew which routes to take to keep me off of the steeper hills and away from the metro tracks n all. We went early on a summer Sunday morning to avoid as much traffic as we could.

And what Howie said--if you haven't taken the MSF, do so. It's a fun way to spend a weekend and you'll learn a lot! [thumbsup]

 

In the city, when turning corners and such (which is what I assume you mean), I'm usually going very slow (walking speed or just above), and I treat it just like I do if I were riding a bicycle. In fact, I really don't think about it much. Is that wrong?

 

I currently dont ride in the city, im in Tallahassee florida and im hoping to be able to bring my level up in the next 3 months before i go back to good old brooklyn. Ive already taken MSF, and I find that they dont allow you get to speeds where you would normally ride at. I was making all these turns at 5-10mph and you can only lean so far at that speed. My main concern is body position for leaning the cycle at about 25mph for those big intersection turns.Mostrobelle, that was a realy helpful post! and, some_dude, im trying to avoid that, turning at walking speeds = horns honking. Inmagine a grandma driving in the streets, thats me. ;D

 

Agree with the earlier poster that if you don't feel comfortable on a simply 90 degree turn, I would wait to ride around Manhattan or even Brooklyn. That said, I think you're thinking too much about leaning and not enough about throttle control and vision. For a city turn, stay centered on your set, countersteer normally, look through the turn to where you want to go (not at your front wheel, the curb, that other car next to you, etc.) and smoothly roll on the throttle and accelerate consistently through the turn. And at very slow speeds don't countersteer, but rather steer into the turn. At slow speeds you don't have enough gyroscopic force coming from the wheels to countersteer effectively.

 

Forget "counter steering " at low speeds. It does not work under about 30 mph and is not required. (It is an advanced steering technique)

Very low speed turns can be made easier by using clutch slip to control the rpm.

 

Forget "counter steering " at low speeds. It does not work under about 30 mph and is not required. (It is an advanced steering technique)

Very low speed turns can be made easier by using clutch slip to control the rpm.

Counter steering works from about 6 mph on up.

And it's the most basic of steering techniques. All riders should understand it. You only need to let go of your left hand and hold the right with thumb and one finger to clearly see how it works when you move that hand.

However, I do agree that slipping the clutch makes turns easier at low speeds.

 

Average approach speed is around 25mph, but you'll be taking sharp 90 degree turns anywhere from a dead stop to around 35 max in a city environment. Learn how to counter weight, which is keeping your body uprightish while you allow the bike to lean into the turn for those slow speed turns.

 

Counter steering works from about 6 mph on up.

And it's the most basic of steering techniques. All riders should understand it. You only need to let go of your left hand and hold the right with thumb and one finger to clearly see how it works when you move that hand.

However, I do agree that slipping the clutch makes turns easier at low speeds.

Well Scott... in an attempt to test your statement, today, I tried to ride at 6mph and that was absolutely impossible (on my Monster and my scoot bike) so the lowest speed (just) practicable was about 20mph. Even at this speed I found it very difficult to utilise counter steering let alone test the finger tip control that you stated would clearly show how it works. I wonder if you have actually tried it yourself? In fact at low speeds the "push" on the "low" bar had exactly the opposite effect and steered out of the turn.

I stand by my statement that at 30 mph plus, the effect of counter steering begins to have effect and be of value to the rider.

In the O.P's case ( where he is afraid of leaning) - I believe it bad advice to encourage him to counter steer for what he is trying to achieve. He needs to be encouraged to body steer through his corners.

 

I stand by my statement that at 30 mph plus, the effect of counter steering begins to have effect and be of value to the rider.

In that case, I invite you to go read http://www.msgroup.org/TIP183.html"]Why Counter-Steering Begins At About 6 mph[/url] over at http://www.msgroup.org then join the forum and post your argument in the Contrary Opinions section. If you can convince that group, then you'll convince me too. I've found that on my two Ducatis as well as on my bicycle, that the countersteering speed is, indeed, about 6 mph.

Also, be sure to read http://www.msgroup.org/TIP048.html as well.

 

In that case, I invite you to go read http://www.msgroup.org/TIP183.html"]Why Counter-Steering Begins At About 6 mph[/url] over at http://www.msgroup.org then join the forum and post your argument in the Contrary Opinions section. If you can convince that group, then you'll convince me too. I've found that on my two Ducatis as well as on my bicycle, that the countersteering speed is, indeed, about 6 mph.

I think it depends on a lot of factors; weight, relative mass of the wheel providing the gyroscopic force, center of gravity, rake of the bike, etc. I agree it's not 30mph, but I don't think countersteering in a sub-10 mph city turn is a good thing for a noob. The additional lean angle of countersteering will make it harder for them to make corrections, aside from the fact that when they inevitably chop the throttle mid turn, it will really unsettle the bike at that speed if they're countersteering.

Just my $.02.

 

Well Scott... in an attempt to test your statement, today, I tried to ride at 6mph and that was absolutely impossible (on my Monster and my scoot bike) so the lowest speed (just) practicable was about 20mph. Even at this speed I found it very difficult to utilise counter steering let alone test the finger tip control that you stated would clearly show how it works. I wonder if you have actually tried it yourself? In fact at low speeds the "push" on the "low" bar had exactly the opposite effect and steered out of the turn.

I stand by my statement that at 30 mph plus, the effect of counter steering begins to have effect and be of value to the rider.

In the O.P's case ( where he is afraid of leaning) - I believe it bad advice to encourage him to counter steer for what he is trying to achieve. He needs to be encouraged to body steer through his corners.

That's just not true. Counter-steering is not some magic technique you pull out of your master rider bag of tricks when you really need it. You use it all the time, including low speeds. It depends how fast you're going, the sharpness of the turn you're trying to execute, and factors like body position. The really weird thing to me is that your body seems to know somehow which way to turn the bars. I have never in my life thought, "Hmm, should I countersteer at this turn or not?" And I've also never failed to negotiate a turn. Don't ask me how.

You can easily ride on a 45mph road as a beginner, but just try changing lanes without countersteering... It ain't an advanced technique and you're in big trouble if you don't have it.

There are two kinds of riders: those who countersteer and know it and those who countersteer without knowing it. Nobody doesn't countersteer.

Your experiment may have been a little biased. I used my knees to lean the bike at low speeds. Maybe you can't technically countersteer at very low speeds with just the bars, but that's not natural riding.

 

I do not have any argument with Counter steering (per se) and I know how to do it and I understand the dynamics of it and I do it (just like everyone else does - conciously and unconciously).

In regard to 6mph comment in the thread I was interested that I could not achieve such a low speed (slow jogging pace) on my Monster without considerable clutch slipping and that meant it was impossible to do the "left hand off test" for finger tip control on the right bar . At the lowest speed I could manage, I found that there was no countersteering effect and the machine turned "logically" with the steering. At low speeds such as these, I felt that the bike was turning with the traction of the front tyre coming into force over anything resembling gyroscopic force. Also at this low speed any lean was insignificant and in fact more to the outside if anywhere. ( Hard to tell from the wobble)

Pretty much got the same results with my scoot bike and my pushbike.

I definitely know that if I do a mid street u turn at low speed, I am using logical bar turn steering, excessively body leaning into the turn (for balance) with the bike "artificially" leaned outward .


BTW: I would love to see a video of anyone riding a standard monster at 6mph using right hand only and if it demonstrated counter steering in operation at given low speed - even better. Who knows ...could be some great YouTube moments captured in the attempt.

 

Who cares when you can start countersteering? I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense to be countersteering at 6....granted its a whole comfort thing I fail to see why we're argueing about it.

 

We are not arguing it. We are discussing the proposition because its an interesting subject.

 

...granted its a whole comfort thing I fail to see why we're argueing about it.

Yeah, we're not arguing.

So far this has been an informative discussion with quite a bit of information shared on both sides of the "discussion". I appreciate that everyone has remained civilized. Can anyone else come up with additional links to information about counter-steering and speeds at which it is effective?

Personally, I've always thought of it as how it works at low speeds on a bicycle. If I'm turning left, I'll swing the front end out to the right to get the bike to lean left, then follow through with the turn once the bike is leaning as much as I want. You do roughly the same thing at any speed, it's just that when you're going faster the only thing you can do is apply pressure, which is otherwise described as counter-steering. It still has the effect of moving the front end to the right until the bike leans left, but the steering geometry (not gyroscopic forces) then forces everything into equilibrium.

In the Lee Parks book, Total Control, he recommends one exercise where you ride through some twisties and only apply pressure with the hand on the inside of the turn. This is both to initiate the turn and to straighten back out afterwards. The goal is to make sure you're not providing opposite pressure with the other hand. I tried it and discovered that I was not applying opposite pressure. Still, it was an interesting ride for 30 miles, concentrating only on steering pressure. You should try it sometime.

 

In my "experiments" with counter steering I recently tried something different.

Note: this was normal and hi speed riding , not slow.

I tried concentrating on simultaneously using input to both sides of the bar. Push and pull.

This definitely gives a very powerful sense of effective steering and bike control.

I found it overcomes the thought pattern that pushing in the seemingy wrong direction is the wrong action to steer the bike. It also kept my arms from tightening and allowed loose elbows/arms.


BTW: I tried it 'cos of something I read recently - Possibly in 'SportRiding Techniques' by Nick Inestach

 

I tried concentrating on simultaneously using input to both sides of the bar. Push and pull.

Since I did all of my early riding on dirt bikes, I generally counter-steered by pulling, since I was often also just trying to hang on. It took me years to convert to pushing while riding on twisty roads. I'm pretty sure that I still often both push and pull as well.

I don't ride fast enough most of the time that I need to steer faster than can easily be done by pushing on the outside inside bar.

 

hopefully you meant "pushing on the inside bar" ;D


I might add that I thought the dual input gave a greater sensitivity to the feel of the road because both hands and arms were picking up the vibes.

 

In the Lee Parks book, Total Control, he recommends one exercise where you ride through some twisties and only apply pressure with the hand on the inside of the turn.

Funny, my recommendation to Kui is to go buy the Lee Parks Total Control book. I read it and did the clinic last year. He covers a section about making tight turns at slow speeds, and you use counterweight, riding the bike as if it was a dirtbike, leaning the bike not you. I use this technique whenriding in the city all the time. When you come back don't forget to give the NYMMC crew a shout! (we also cover leaning off the bike/getting a knee down at relatively slow speeds, but I don't recommend this in the city!)

My further recommendation Kui, is to find an empty parking lot in Tallahassee and practice the exercise. I also feel that you just need more time in the saddle as well, to feel more comfortable with the bike and traffic as well.

best of luck,
Michelle

 

If there is a speed below which countersteering does not work, and a speed above the "turn in the direction you want to go" does not work, is there an exact speed at which you can do anything and the bike will not turn at all? And if this majical speed does not exist, why not?????? ;D

 

If there is a speed below which countersteering does not work, and a speed above the "turn in the direction you want to go" does not work, is there an exact speed at which you can do anything and the bike will not turn at all? And if this majical speed does not exist, why not?????? ;D

Dude, you totally just blew my mind. Whoa.



Am I the only one who just "rides?" I don't think about pushing or pulling this bar or that. When the car in front of me brakes suddenly on the highway, I shift my weight and "turn" to another lane, fast. I have no idea exactly what I'm doing. I figure I stand on the left peg, relax on the right peg, twist the throttle, and point the wheel to the left, while shifting my body to the right. But that thought process never goes through my head.

I think I turn with "muscle memory" made up of motor actions that either work or do not work on a bike under various conditions. It just feels natural from riding bicycles when I was a kid.

At what point do you actually decompose your ride into different conscious strategies? I just ride naturally. Haven't run into a problem yet.

 

Dude, you totally just blew my mind. Whoa.



Am I the only one who just "rides?" I don't think about pushing or pulling this bar or that. When the car in front of me brakes suddenly on the highway, I shift my weight and "turn" to another lane, fast. I have no idea exactly what I'm doing. I figure I stand on the left peg, relax on the right peg, twist the throttle, and point the wheel to the left, while shifting my body to the right. But that thought process never goes through my head.

I think I turn with "muscle memory" made up of motor actions that either work or do not work on a bike under various conditions. It just feels natural from riding bicycles when I was a kid.

At what point do you actually decompose your ride into different conscious strategies? I just ride naturally. Haven't run into a problem yet.

Well you just might find that problem if you dont look in the mirror first.

 

Well you just might find that problem if you dont look in the mirror first.

Ok. I also remember to look in the mirror and to breathe in and out to supply my heart with oxygen too.

 

--------------snip-----------------
At what point do you actually decompose your ride into different conscious strategies? I just ride naturally. Haven't run into a problem yet.

A) When you're trying to explain via printed word *how* to execute a particular maneuver.

B) When you've just done a turn wrong, and are trying to figure out why you went over the DY (or whatever).

I've been riding a *long* time, and much of it is done subconciously, but unless I break it down into seperate operations and analyze them individually, it's impossible to improve, IMO.