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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
A few pics of how a leather suit should NOT be stitched together:

Alpinestars Stage-1 after a low speed tumble:








Joe Rocket GPX after a good tumble on the track at high-speed:








Both riders received relatively minor injuries in either event, both lucky outcomes for the damage and failures of the pieces to stay together.


How should a suit be stitched together?

"Testing is the only way to be sure that seams are strong enough to hold, but you can check for the following:

* Seams in Zones 1, 2 and 3 should have at least one row of concealed or protected stitching, to hold the seam together after the visible stitching has been worn away against the road surface.

* Check the stitching. It should be regular with no dropped stitches, which indicate a potentially weakened seam.

* Leather should have 11-14 stitches per 5 cm, fabric should have 13-16 stitches per 5 cm (Standards Australia, 2000, p 22). Too few stitches, means the seam will be too weak, but too many stitches will actually weaken the fabric.

* Additional layers should be double stitched.

* Additional layers MUST be stitched on top of the main protective layer - see diagram A, rather than a separate double section that is inserted into the garment (see B). Check inside the garment to ensure there is no gap in the main protective layer. You may need to feel through the lining."

http://www.roadsafety.mccofnsw.org.au/a/88.html








The CE standard for motorcyclists whole garments includes minimum requirements for burst strength:

EN 13595-3:2002 Protective clothing for professional motorcycle riders. Jackets, trousers and one piece or divided suits. Test method for determination of burst strength.

An example of a CE-approved stitchwork, the only suit to score well in that category, and the only CE-approved suit:



In another test, the BKS and Carrera suits took top honors, both CE-approved, the only perfect scores in seam strength:

http://www.southbayriders.com/forums/uploads/pic102319.pdf


As is mentioned in this article:

Critical seams which are vulnerable to abrasion in a slide (those at the elbows, shoulders, hips, knees, back and bum) should be protected with overlaid reinforcement panels to hold the seam together after any exposed stitching has been damaged. The suit should be made from large panels of leather with any graphics overlaid and not patchworked in.


BKS's superior methods shown at bottom:

http://www.bksleather.co.uk/designspage/inner_strength.pdf


ZEROS and below average seam burst in the lab:










 

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ever thought of taking up golf?? Sorry man....had to!!! lol
 

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Man, this is a scary post.
 

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Seems to me you like crashing....


:eek:
 

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I'd like to know if those leathers fit you tight? Loose leathers, no matter how well made, also will shred like that at high speed. If they fit you perfectly, then that speaks volumes about the quality of those models of Alpinestars and Joe Rocket leathers. You'd like to think that you would get more than one crash out of a suit of leathers, but truthfully they did their job.
 

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License2ill didn't say these were pics of his leathers. In fact, despite being asked, he hasn't said what gear he rides in at all: something I am curious about as all his posts are about what gear is inferior.

Before selling off all my gear in a fit of panick, I'd require more information anout the fit of the suits shown on the rider, the exact circumstances of the crash, the age of the suits, etc. etc.


Chris
 

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It seems harmless to post up about the crashworthiness of leathers. You could learn a lot by the stuff he posts. It's true about stitching and that some leathers are better than others. Whatever the intentions of the poster, the information is only helpful.
 

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okemos said:
It seems harmless to post up about the crashworthiness of leathers. You could learn a lot by the stuff he posts. It's true about stitching and that some leathers are better than others. Whatever the intentions of the poster, the information is only helpful.
To bring articles to our attention is fantastic. To point out good things to look for in protective gear is fantastic. To continuoulsy trash certain gear without more than a few pictures without any specifics or an in-depth discussion of how fit effects damage begins to appear odd after a while and makes me question it, that's all. And when the poster continues to post all this info without giving background on what he or she wears, what he or she rides, and how he or she rides just begins to appear strange.

And I disagree with it only being helpfull. Many newer riders would benefit from cheaper gear over nothing, and without anything more than what we're seing here, I think some would be disuaded from buying some cheaper stuff. One brand scoring well over another in one specific magazine test says nothing about fit, customer service, repairability, availability, etc.

I think both extreme sides of the research are wrong... the first person "get all info from people who crash in it" are missing something, and the "test it all in lab settings" are missing something. I think it's a combination of both.

C
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
The issues shown hererdon't directly relate to price at all, as evidenced by the lowest finishers and scores of most of the suits in the Ride magazine comparison tests. The ones with the superior stitching are the only ones that are approved to the performance standard, the ones with poor stitching vary all the way to the most expensive suits in those tests. The individual crash examples at the top may be less expensive suits, but it's pretty clear that the most expensive Astars option doesn't offer much better in those comparison tests. As for issues of fit, that is ridiculous when talkking aobut seam failures, especially the obvious crash damage failures, and measured burst differences shown in the lab tests. Fit will not change the burst resistance of poor stitching design or materials.

The point for newbies is that they should be aware that price doesn't buy you sfety or better options by itself. Are cheaper suits better than nothing? Not neccessrily, you will be better off spending your money on something tested and proven to a performance standard, regardless of price. Coss are definitely cut in lower price ranges, and much of that does have to do with the stitching efforts and designs of the suits that provide more points of failure. That could obviously very well result in outcomes that are not better than nothing past the point of a parking lot spill, and could certainly be considered a waste of money, and be something that keeps something better off of someone's back.

Protective level should never be related to price point, and the performance values shown by the standardized pieces shown in those Ride mag tests should be available in the mainstream, and down to the cheapest suit that wants to call itself a motoryclist portective suit. Those CE stndards establish that criteria within their use and keep crap from being sold without knowldege of it's performance values despite the relative retail price.

New riders are owed better options at every price point, and we should all be willing to provide higher quality information about those issues than thoughts that don;t relate to the obvious, and than price point criteeria relating to portective values. The real detriment to protective values is swapping info in terms that don;t provide real solutions for any amount of money or hopes.
 

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license2ill said:
Are cheaper suits better than nothing? Not neccessrily, you will be better off spending your money on something tested and proven to a performance standard, regardless of price.
Ok, let me first start by saying that I have enough sense to include the price of gear in the purchase price of a motorcycle, but, not everyone does.

I find it very hard to believe that you can say someone who has a 3-400 budget for gear is not better off by getting what they can afford rather than wearing no gear at all.

If they don't have money for proper gear, they shouldn't buy a motorcycle. But if they do (like so many already do) I think they should get what they can afford, even if it's not "tested to CE standards"...
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
NAKID said:
Ok, let me first start by saying that I have enough sense to include the price of gear in the purchase price of a motorcycle, but, not everyone does.

I find it very hard to believe that you can say someone who has a 3-400 budget for gear is not better off by getting what they can afford rather than wearing no gear at all.

If they don't have money for proper gear, they shouldn't buy a motorcycle. But if they do (like so many already do) I think they should get what they can afford, even if it's not "tested to CE standards"...
Well, I know this is a Ducati board, at which point the price arguments become a bit ridiculous, to say the least. However, like I said above, suits at any price point shouldn't be different in minimum protective values. With that said, there are known issues in general related to price point because the mainstream doesn;t include the type of testing considerations spoken about above. Why? Because we haven't demanded better information as of yet before purchasing. Those known issues where costs are often cut, directly affect a suit's ability to perform, and it's unfortunately an all too common practice at lower price point, and one that renders the real value of a suit at a point close to normal clothing. Even at higher relative prices, these issues can be found, so spending more is not always of consequence or the real issue either. The point is that performance matters at any price point, and allowing concessions in protective performance at any price is unacceptable, though it is currently commonplace.

I wouldn't suggest spending more to get Alpinestars or Dainese, where substance is not shown for the price increase. I would, however, not spend more or less to get the same lack of substance, knowningly, but I'd likely spend less if the concessions were a mandatory issue within all options. Yes, I'd buy the cheapest option I could, if there were no other choice in terms of substantive differences in outcomes. It all depends on the level of protection truly gained by the purchase. Those levels are stil lnot known for many options, but many have also shown to be damn near useless, especially if higher speeds, meaning longer or harder falls that may come with it are at question. The differences in stitching techniques are one thing that can be visually examined before buying. The patchwork graphics, the flat stitched seams, the size of the armor pieces, hard plastic in place of energy-absorbing materials, large amounts of stretch material in the crotch or all the way down the arm. THose are all visual cues that are usually done to save money, in leiu of protective value. Still, some companies do the same things at higher price points.

While you may have to pay more to get real substance right now, the point is buy based on real substance if you can, don't rely on price, and don't pay for known concessions to safety that render a suit basically ineffective for any reasonable expectation of protective value. The CE standard is the best known way of doing that, as are the objective test comparisons by Ride magazine based on those tests, but it is a currently limited market, while the mainstream is thriving on our willingness to accept inferior goods and pay just enough for them to keep the cycle going.
 

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The thing is that there is no current US standard for MC gear. Not every company, especially one's that are planning on only sales in the US, are going to go to the extra effort and cost for CE approval. It doesn't mean they are inferior, they could be, but it's not a direct correlation...
 

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license2ill said:
Well, I know this is a Ducati board, at which point the price arguments become a bit ridiculous, to say the least.
Why? My 620 new was less than the Japanese I4 600 than everyone else buys. I know you have no idea about the cost of ownership of any kind of bike because you don't ride one.

But I think your intentions are good. And when you scan all of the Brit mag's in your mom's basement you are trying to inform us. And spouting off CE stuff is good to try and call out MFG's. But telling someone that they shouldn't get gear until they can get a specific one tested in a suitable magazine is stupid. List all the American stores that carry Hideout leathers so I can try on some.

BTW my Astar TZ1 jacket and track pants held up just fine in a 40 MPH lowside and 15 MPH lowside.
 

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I wouldn't suggest spending more to get Alpinestars or Dainese, where substance is not shown for the price increase



Ill,
your threads just continue to get more and more interesting. Out of curiousity, how well do you know both lineups from AlpineStars or Dainese? Actually, how well do you know the lineups from any manufacturer? And based on the knowledge, or lack there of, what makes you the authority to make your claims.
The stitching charts that you posted were excellent and I actually went through the Dainese models to look at the stitching on the suits. So, I wish to thank you for putting up that information.

Since you push "Ride" Magazines reviews exclusively, and (2) photos of particular suits that you "claim" did not hold up well, without giving "us", your fellow Monster readers any other information pertaining to those incidents, why not fill in the blanks.
There are too many unknown variables with those two suits, and you may be slandering those products, based on what, pictures?

Rather than continue to read your threads bashing Dainese product, why not invite you out to the D-Store. *** Ill, I'd like to invite you out to the D-Store for lunch and and we can walk around the showroom and I will record your comments on the product (Suits, back protectors, boots) and afterwards, I will send your comments to Italy so Dainese will read your concerns, claims, etc.
This way, I can educate you on the differences in our suits, which you feel are so inferior and based mostly on fashion rather than safety.


Best Regards,



Michael
Dainese D-Store Manager
1645 Superior Ave
Costa Mesa, Ca. 92627
(949) 650-2300
 

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Dammit Michael, can I come for lunch? I actually like and BUY Dainese products! ;D

Cheers,
Dave

P.S. Actually, you guys sent me a zipper a few months back. Your staff seems top notch. I wish Costa Mesa were closer to Raleigh, NC.
 

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I agree with John I still believe this guy is working for a competing interest... regardless it appears he's either a zealot, a mega-troll or both. I've been trying to ignore him but it's like a good crash in Nascar you can't help but watch.

Simple google search revealed these (this is just a sampling from page 1 ... OF 7! From page 1 to page 2 he actually is most active on BARF so maybe someone will vouch for him from there. Most of the posts i saw are incredibly similar to his posts here. My recommendation to all is to "TRUST BUT VERIFY."

http://www.advrider.com/forums/search.php?searchid=1509388

http://www.600rr.net/vb/search.php?searchid=1201896

http://www.fireblades.org/forums/search.php?searchid=1173376&pp=30&page=2

http://forum.motorcycle-usa.com/profile.aspx?p=1743&f=45

http://www.dcsportbikes.net/forum/search.php?searchid=435060

He's been banned on Sportsbikes.net

http://www.sportbikes.net/forums/member.php?u=5945
 
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