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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My S2R1000 is currently being used as a "test" bike for a fuel mapping solution called powercard. Info here:
http://www.powercardtuning.com/
My bike has a full Arrow, so this whole process is to create a mapped card that will work with S2R1000 with full system. Basically the O2
sensor stays connected and the powercard system "hijacks" the O2 sensor input and takes control of the fuel mangament for the bike. The
powercard sends a electric signal to the O2 sensor in order to "trick" the sensor into not doing anyting. Right now we setup the bike to start stock,
idle like usual, but at 1700rpm the powercard takes over and the bike no longer runs in "closed loop" stock mode. A gas analizer was used during
the setup on my bike, which you can see in photos. So far the bike is smoother, bit more "punchy" overall, but still getting some "popping" on steady
or roll off throttle. Next phase is Dyno, which should take care of it. Since at the moment there are not alot of options for fuel management on the S2R100,
this may work out well and be a good solution for ill running bikes. My bike however ran pretty well from the dealer, but I did have some surging issues, no big
deal. BTW, I have no affilation with powercard people. I met the head sales tech at my shop and suggested they could perhaps use my bike for research since
I bought it with the full Arrow on from day one. Photos below of install.
 

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Post dyno results when you get them please. So far what is your overall happiness with the product?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Yes will for sure put up Dyno info. I am really interested to see what the 1000 is putting
out without the card, and with the card. So far I am pretty happy with mapping, but need to sort
out the roll off popping. Since in the end I will have a total custom map, I think it will be pretty cool.
Also if anyone runs a full Arrow, the card should be set up perfect once its done, for that combo.
 

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Excellent! I'm local to you so I'll have to checkout your bike one you get it dialed in.

I have the exact same popping as you but I think it might be an exhaust leak & not fueling issues.. I could be wrong though. Mine does it @ constant 4k - 4,500k & when I roll off easy . When I rev it hard & roll off hard, no popping, just beautiful Arrow music >:D I seem to remeber the stock cans have a little burble too so maybe it is the map. I don't think my bike is much leaner than stock though because my temps are very similar & it seems to run smoother than stock.

One odd thing I've noticed is that the bottom can gets much hotter than the top one. Where as the top one is cool to the touch after a ride, the bottom ones is quite hot. Does yours do this?

Keep us posted [thumbsup]
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
well after intial install and adjusting everything seemed fine with the powercard on my S2R. But next day problems started.
Bike seemed normal, but when you would ride it, come to a stoplight, throttle off, the bike would not go below 2200rpm and
idle there, very lame. I had to turn off bike and restart it to get rid of high idle isse. All 3 times I rode it that day the same thing
happened. At the moment, I am not happy at all with whats going on, the powercard is either not sending the correct signal to
the O2 sensor or is just totally wacky, not sure. Traveling for work now so will not be able to sort it out until this weekend. Guess
being the test bike is not so cool after all! :-[ more info soon!
 

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Don't sweat it! If they can't fix it at least you'll know before buying it & I'll buy you a beer since you saved me $199. If they're any good, they'll sort it out. I bet the next step will be to remove the o2 sensor & remap. That seems to be the prefered rout at the present time when altering the map. Heck even Ducati does that on their DP ECU. [cheeky]

Let us know how it goes [thumbsup]
 

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i wouldn't worry about the issue yet, it's research and development still, i'd be more worried if no issues came up. they will probably try to induce these issues so they can map them to react to them in a real environment.

i'd like to personally thank you for donating your bike and time to helping out all of us S2R1k owners with gaining some much needed ecu options, looks like you're a step ahead of dynojet!
 

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i haven't met anybody that's been truly pleased with the powercard (or any of it's incarnations) solution.
 

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The problem I see with this is that above a certain rpm the s2r1000 goes into open loop operation anyway; it only reacts to input from the o2 sensor in the lower rpm ranges. That means that using this solution it is in theory impossible to do anything about the fuel delivery in the upper rpm ranges.

Right? ???
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
derby said:
i haven't met anybody that's been truly pleased with the powercard (or any of it's incarnations) solution.
so what do you know that I do not? Is it just no good ? Details would be helpful!
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
SteveG said:
The problem I see with this is that above a certain rpm the s2r1000 goes into open loop operation anyway; it only reacts to input from the o2 sensor in the lower rpm ranges. That means that using this solution it is in theory impossible to do anything about the fuel delivery in the upper rpm ranges.

Right? ???
As far as I know you are not correct. The card is is telling the bike how to mix fuel/air /etc, all over the RPM range. Many of the problems with the S2R1000 stem from
not being able to adjust fuel /mix when the bike is in closed loop mode(up to 4500, not sure exact rpm), the powercard lets you make adjustments all over the range,
and it only runs in closed loop mode below 1700 rpm (near idle). However this is all done with O2 sensor plugged in, with it removed the bike will no longer have
any closed loop mode abiltiy. So that may be the way to go. Anyone else with experience with Powercard or Motocard please speak up! I have had powercommanders in the past, and my 748 has a Ultimap chip(sort of oldschool), never delt with Powercard before. Thought I would help them out and perhaps get a good solution for other 1000 owners out there, time will tell.
 

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Sorry, I guess I misread what you posted. When I read this:

duc_748 said:
Basically the O2 sensor stays connected and the powercard system "hijacks" the O2 sensor input and takes control of the fuel mangament for the bike.
I took that to mean that the mechanism by which the powercard changed the fuel was to send a 'fake' O2 sensor reading to the computer. If that were how it worked, then tuning the upper rpm ranges would be impossible, since the ecu ignores the O2 sensor beyond X rpm.
 

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The other issues with the powercard are limited adjustment granularity and that it can only add, not remove fuel at any given point in the map (at least according to their faq). As you can see, there are many cells on my (PCIII) custom map that actually remove fuel relative to the stock map rather than add. You can also see that it would be hard to duplicate this fuel map with just a few coarse controls such as the powercard offers. In the end though, they're doing the r+d for free, so you might as well see it through and find out what they come up with. Maybe I'll be eating my words.

 

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I don't even know where to start.
Can you say; Techlusion?? That sounds like the 'Illusion of Technology'.
The TFI, the DFO, the Terry Products 'Maximum Velocity', and if I had wanted to, the Doug Lofgren DMB.
All of these products are made by Mark Dobeck.
When I worked for Kuryakyn we looked into one of the same things that would actuate a 3rd injector and Nitrous Oxide solenoid for 'Cruisers'.
The processor is very powerful. It can turn your coffee pot on 15 minutes before you wake up. I've seen the software for it and there are a myriad of functions it can read and perform.
So, if you spent a couple weeks, you might even be able to do some of what a power commander does but then it wouldn't cost $199 would it.
The first version of the TFI was speed sensitive. It would count injector pulses and the low speed would drop off and the high speed would take over. You could add as much fuel to the lower speed regime as you wanted and to the higher speed regime if you wanted. It even had an accelerator pump feature. With that you could drown your engine in fuel, but that isn't what your engine needs.
Neither does it need a cup of coffee in the morning.
The latest version is sold as 'load sensitive' (I visited a prominent SoCal Ducati shop last year and heard the whole rap.)
That means that it can be made to add fuel above a certain pulse width (that corresponds to torque) which is adjustable.
Just as your engine doesn't need the same percentage of extra fuel at every point beyond a certain RPM, it also doesn't need the same percentage of extra fuel above a certain torque level.
Take a look at the Power Commander map. That shows how much more or less fuel the engine needed at all of the RPM and throttle position set-points. You can't accomplish that with a single potentiometer.
But, beyond that little detail is the fact that the 'Torque sensitive' part doesn't come from a strain gage on your transmission shaft, it is only implied by the injector pulse-width dictated by the fuel map on the ECU. The problem with that is that it isn't the map your engine needs!!! That's why you're mapping it!!
I wish the problem was simple, 'cause I'm an idiot!!
It has never been that simple, but with the right tools and a little more resources, it can be fixed every time.
With the Harleys, the software is available to monitor and adjust the IAC and every (well, most) other aspect of the system. They have all of the same kind of problems as you're having but they can be dealt with.
In the H-D world there are only a few folks across the US who have waded into that realm, and without access to the 5.9M nobody can learn what it's doing and nobody can fix it.
The Power Commander and the Rapid Bike can do most of it but they are limited by systems like the closed loop narrow band O2 sensor and the IAC.
Most of the drivability and power can be fixed by getting the fueling correct, but there may be issues that are out of the tuner's control.
You may think that I'm being a curmudgeon or diss-ing the competition, but there is so little knowledge on this subject, even in the highest places, that it boggles the mind. That is why the stuff runs so bad and nobody can get answers.

Doug Lofgren
 

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Wow, thanks Doug. Great info.

So if you had an S2r1K with Arrows, how would you tune it? Keep the O2 sensor? Ditch it? I'm stock now & it feels good but I'm sure that I have lean spots & would like to get rid of them.
 

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GusDuc, I have been away from the Ducati world of tuning for a few years, so I don't know just what the liitations on any given model are.
Let's hear from SteveG, it looks like his source is doing what is needed, maybe he or they can enlighten us a little more.
Calling Dynojet might get some info (I think I'll call them right now) and the Rapid Bike III can do rev limit and timing.

Doug
 
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