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Problem with the Power Comanders

6068 Views 81 Replies 23 Participants Last post by  alfisti, 
T
I've been considering an aftermarket exhaust and a Power Comander III for my new S2R. I wanted to make sure that what ever I did, I did not void my warranty. So I first spoke with my wrench, Chad, at my local shop (Ducati Oklahoma in OKC). He wasn't sure so I sent an email to DucatiUSA. This is the response that I got to my inquiry about the availability of an adjustable ECU from DP, or whether or not a PCIII would void my warrany.

"Ducati does not offer an adjustable ECU. Installing a different ECU does not void the complete warranty. Only a warranty on the ECU and any electical issue that is deternined to be related to the ECU."

This gave me hope that I could customize my bike the way I trully wanted too (wide open and loud >:D). So I called AMS in Dallas and spoke to Scott. He was familiar with the DML and has owned three Monsters prior to the current 999r he is buying. I explained what I wanted to do and he asked a few follow up questions to make sure he understood my request. He stated that he wanted to discuss it with Jeff Nash the owner (you should visit the website and read about him. I wish they were here in OKC and not 200 mile away!). He called me back in about an hour and shared with me that indeed they could install a PCIII or similar ECU, and map the fuel mix with some dyno time thrown in since I was coming so far. I thought this was very cool [thumbsup] Unfortunately, he went on to say that he did not recomend the instalation of any such ECU (particularly the Power Comander) as they have had them recently go bad in a "number of bikes". :eek: He went on in some detail about how a very free flowing exhaust with a PC III would cause the power band to have excessive peaks and valleys as opposed to the smooth curve we are all used to on the Monster. He was over my head when he mentioned that a contributing factor was the back pressure built into the DP systems allows the engine to "scavenge" part of the exhaust gasses to smooth out the power band. :-[

He finished up by advising me to go with the full Termi system. He said that the ECU that came with it was "slightly" adjustable. He said they could "trick the computer" into supplying more fuel to the engine on a limited basis. But that it was definitly not as adjustable as the PCIII.

My first thought about posting this was that most of you would simply interpret his advice as trying to sell me a system. But I must tell you that I did not get that feeling. In fact, I was very pleased with how he looked into my specific request and called me back willing to discuss it at length.

So my question is this; Have any of you experienced any problems with the PCIII? I look forward to your responses. Thanks.
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D
again, i'm curious about his philosophy regarding performance tuning. unless he knows something nobody else does, neither the current stock or DP ECUs are tuneable.

if he has something again powercommanders, how about ultimaps?

i'm really gonna have to go talk to him about this when i'm in town for the holidays.
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S
Read through the bullshit. He says installing a free flowing exh and PCIII will screw up the powerband, but then tells you to install termis and and ECU. He says not to use programable PCIII because he can "trick" the ECU. What he's really saying is "I don't sell x-brand exhaust and PCIII, buy some termis from me." Two words... Arrows & PCIII. If you go with that combo I can e-mail you a great canned map.
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StacK said:
Read through the bullshit. He says installing a free flowing exh and PCIII will screw up the powerband, but then tells you to install termis and and ECU. He says not to use programable PCIII because he can "trick" the ECU. What he's really saying is "I don't sell x-brand exhaust and PCIII, buy some termis from me." Two words... Arrows & PCIII. If you go with that combo I can e-mail you a great canned map.
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don't get me started on canned maps. if you're not familiar with my position on 'em, do a search.

the thing about what he does and doesn't sell doesn't entirely float. i mean, he COULD sell whatever he wants but he made his decision based on... something.
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T
For what it's worth. He said they sell the Arrow system.
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derby said:
don't get me started on canned maps. if you're not familiar with my position on 'em, do a search.
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What was that position again Derby? [laugh]
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ducman851 said:
What was that position again Derby? [laugh]
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;D
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derby said:
;D
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LIke I would know ;)
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B
position deez. ;D

I got a loaner map that runs great.
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Bug said:
position deez. ;D

I got a loaner map that runs great.
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good? good enough? perfect? correct? how do you know?
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B
The bike pulls through every gear stronger. It peaks later in the rpm range or it is no longer flat at the top. I never hit the rev limiter before I put the PCIII on, because the motor, DS 1000, went flat early. The map may not be optimal, but it is far superior to the stock set up.

It could be that I just got lucky. Eventually, I will have a custom map done with dyno. I wouldn't be surprised if the gains were superiour, but I doubt that I would realize the same benefits. or not worth the loot. The maps on the PCIII site suck, but looking for a loaner map for a similarly setup bike should not be overlooked.
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B
oh yeah, I forgot to add that I it had growl. You can't beat growl, mang, no way.
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L
Here is an Idea,
I just installed a full arrow system pcIII open airbox.. (The works!) I had the DUCSHOP e-mail me a map they mapped for someone else. until I can get down there for a dyno tune and custom map.

Here is there info. Give them a call, ask for Mark. Perhaps they can address your questions pros and cons to both systems. They are a Duc service center. Not a dealer. If anybody knows about it they will. They are located in GA. I know you want be driving to have them do the work, but at least you can get a non biased wrench opinion.


PS, Every termi owner (w/open air box) I know dumped the new ecu for a pcIII.




Mark Sutton
Ducshop Performance Center
1000 Cobb Pkwy. N. Suite C
Marietta, GA. 30062

Ph. 678-594-7717
Fax. 678-594-7727

www.ducshop.com




Good luck, Hope this is as valuable of a resource to you as they are me.
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My PCIII quit working. Bike would not start.
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M
I had Jeff Nash do the tuning work on my M900Sie and I couldn't be happier. I put on a full Termi system (because I wanted it, not because they talked me into it) and opened up the air box with a filter ring and foam ITG filter. My monster has a 1.5 ECU which is FIM tunable (complete new map for fuel and spark and fuel trim for CO) with the proper equipment, which AMS had on site. He also checked and degreed the cams for proper timing, they were not set up as good as they could have been from the factory.

Your monster's ECU (5.9) unfortunately is not FIM tunable. FIM wants to sell you a new ECU, which is tunable, but has problems with reliability. Power Commanders are a love'em or hate'em affair. I had one on my RC46 and never could get it to work right, so I never even thought about one for the monster. I had a talk with Jeff recently (thinking of buying a new monster) and his reasoning on going with the Termi system w/ECU and air filter is the factory has done most of the heavy lifting in tuning the exhaust system (length and diameter of pipe) and setting up the ECU map to match exhaust work and engine dynamics that changed with the addition of a free flowing air filter. AMS can install the system then run the bike on the dyno and fine tune it by adjusting fuel trim and cam timing.

I guess I sound like an advertisement for Jeff and AMS, but he has been working on my Ducati's for a number of years, back when he was a racer and had a shop behind his house. I don't think there's anyone in this part of the country (I live in OKC also) that knows Ducati's and how to make them run their best then Jeff. I still haul my monster down to Alvarado for major services even though we now have a dealer in OKC. I don't think he's just trying to sell you something, he knows what he can make work the best for your monster, but he will sell you anything you want to buy that he has available for sale in his dealership.
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Sorry to hear that Chupa. I had two failures and I'm running fine on my third one. The warranty runs out this winter so I'm going to splice a connector in the PCIII harness so I can install a plug to loopback the injectors and take the PCIII offline in case it fails again. BTW, I recommend doing this on every bike with an out of warranty PCII that will be used for long trips. It is a PITA to disconnect the PCIII connectors under the airbox. Last time I had to do this I was caught in a 42 degree rain.
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M900Sie said:
I had Jeff Nash do the tuning work on my M900Sie and I couldn't be happier. I put on a full Termi system (because I wanted it, not because they talked me into it) and opened up the air box with a filter ring and foam ITG filter. My monster has a 1.5 ECU which is FIM tunable (complete new map for fuel and spark and fuel trim for CO) with the proper equipment, which AMS had on site. He also checked and degreed the cams for proper timing, they were not set up as good as they could have been from the factory.
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I also had my M900 done with the FIM software but Doug Lofgren did mine. Works awesome.

Your monster's ECU (5.9) unfortunately is not FIM tunable. FIM wants to sell you a new ECU, which is tunable, but has problems with reliability. Power Commanders are a love'em or hate'em affair. I had one on my RC46 and never could get it to work right, so I never even thought about one for the monster. I had a talk with Jeff recently (thinking of buying a new monster) and his reasoning on going with the Termi system w/ECU and air filter is the factory has done most of the heavy lifting in tuning the exhaust system (length and diameter of pipe) and setting up the ECU map to match exhaust work and engine dynamics that changed with the addition of a free flowing air filter. AMS can install the system then run the bike on the dyno and fine tune it by adjusting fuel trim and cam timing.

I guess I sound like an advertisement for Jeff and AMS, but he has been working on my Ducati's for a number of years, back when he was a racer and had a shop behind his house. I don't think there's anyone in this part of the country (I live in OKC also) that knows Ducati's and how to make them run their best then Jeff. I still haul my monster down to Alvarado for major services even though we now have a dealer in OKC. I don't think he's just trying to sell you something, he knows what he can make work the best for your monster, but he will sell you anything you want to buy that he has available for sale in his dealership.
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Hmm thats funny, Ive had my FIM U59 for almost 3 years now and its been mapped for 2 different motors, with no reliability issues. Speeddog also has one one his bike with no issues either. Too bad Advanced isnt an FIM dealer anymore so that the product (U59) could actually get the support it deserved. So why would he try to sell it? It really is a good unit.
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Glad to hear your not having problems with your FIM U59. I have no first hand experience with them. I was told by AMS and BCM that they were having problems and neither would recommend using them. So your experience with the product is another data point for me to consider and thanks for that info, first hand experience means a lot. And as far as I know Jeff still does FIM tuning work for customers with Ultimap chips and 1.5 ECU's, so he's not down on FIM products, just doesn't sell them anymore.
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Uh oh, I think this is going to turn into a He Said She Said sort of deal, but allow me to jump into the fray. I've had a FIM ECU on my 800 now for three years with no reliability issues. Earlier this year, however, the bike started running really rough and missing, especially at low RMPs. The problem was a difficult one to track down and the initial diagnosis was a faulty ECU (it turned out to be a bad fuel injector that was rebuilt and problem solved).

Upon hearing the initial news, however, I gave Jeff a call at BCM to see if I could track down another FIM unit. Jeff said he had one, but put me on notice that they were no longer going to be selling them because a number of them were returned. The returns, Jeff explained however, were not due to faulty units, but because the people/shops that ordered them were having difficulty programing the units and sent them back. My understanding from our conversation was that BCM just got tired of the time it took to support the product and the back and forth conversation "It works fine"/"No it doesn't" and chucked the product.

And this shouldn't be surprising. As far as tuning goes, FIM ECUs are demanding units not only becuase of the support systems that a shop needs to have in order to program them, but also becuase of all the variables that need to be factored and controlled to build a good map. Moreover, my experience is that a proper tune and programming of an FIM ECU takes hours and needs the skill/experience of a good tuner - the end results are amazing (as me, ducman851 and other can attest), but I could see some shops getting frustrated, saying the unit doesn't work, and selling the customer something else like a PCIII instead.

There are a lot of perfomance modification options out there, but we shouldn't be so hasty as to say the FIM ECU is unreliable. But perhaps DMLers have had true reliability issues?
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you mean jeff @ ams or somebody else at bcm?
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