[jinx]

Just curious if anyone has seen anything like this...I have had some nagging starting/running issues that have been too inconsistent to put my finger on, and chalked them up to cold weather a few months ago...now it's hot enough the devil's asking for a mint julip and a fan, and noticed that it seemed like every time the bike was idling as I backed it out of a parking space with the bars turned to the right, the engine would die. I have seen some bikes rev up due to the throttle cable being pulled in this position, but not die? Does it do it to the left? Time to experiment! So as I was turning the bars back to center (bike not running, but the ignition was on), the pressurizing pump for the fuel injector kicked on as if I had just turned on the ignition. I tried this a couple of times, and every time the pump kicked on. I couldn't help but to think I had just stumbled across a Pandora's box that I would inevitably open, so I checked for pinched wiring, and the connections around the bars/headlight...everything looked fine. Decided to keep it a look, don't touch, information gathering mission only. Decided to take it around the block to see if the pump was intermittent while riding (maybe a cause for some of the stumbling during acceleration I have noticed lately) now it seemed the power was either on or off as if I were 5 years old revving the plastic grip on my big wheel! The bike was for the most part unridable. Decided to park it and call the shop. They suggested letting it cool off (it was 90+ deg that day) and try it in the morning...so the next day, pulled the bike out, turned the key to the "on" position and to my shock, the bike started turning over automatically, so for the first time having owned the bike, I hit the kill switch....no response, still trying to start...turned the key off and have since trailered it to the dealer. The mechanic (who is a pretty good guy) told me he had seen it before concerning the fuel pump, and that a "particular" wire behind the headlight often gets pinched due to its' routing, as for the other issues he mentioned the possibility of a bad solenoid. Would one cause the other? Has anyone seen this before, and did it cause the amount of varied disruption? I am awaiting their call on the damage, but would like some other feedback if there is any.

bike:
2000 m900s 6600mi
full termi system/k&n with open air box
computer adjusted via gameboy to match.

 

[NJMonster]

I had a very similar thing happen to mine this weekend... I turned the handlebars to the right (full-lock) and the bike shut off... I just restarted it and went on my way... could have been coincidence and I didn't sit there and make it do it again... but I think that will be my Ducati Science Project of the night... along with the new "Toaster Mod" -TedR ....

 

[Duc_Brew]

This is a pretty well known problem and it's caused by an electrical short. When you turn your bars, you're causing it to happen. Tracking it down can be a (insert your favorite word here). I can't remember who had this prob (SN?), but I'm sure he hangs out on the board. Plus, many others have experienced it as well.

DB

 

[test-reg]

your tech is right about the harness. the solenoid would be a seperate issue. they often do stick.

 

[jinx]

update...called the tech...got the response I absolutely cannot stand: "I couldn't get it to happen." The only saving grace is, I showed him what it was doing when I brought it in, so he at least witnessed the "automatic start" feature, and the less than lethal kill switch. However, he can find no shorts, pinches, loose connections etc...pump was pumping, kill switch was killing. The only thing wrong he can identify is that it is running "stinking" rich even though the air box is open with the termi system, and he has leaned it via ecu by 50%...? The same tech had the bike on the dyno <100mi ago and it was running "fine". Nothing has been done since.

My first question was could there be an injector stuck open?...not likely I was told. Bad ecu? temp sensor? no idea? This guy has been a ducati tech for years, and I don't think he is jerking me around, but having mystery issues really racks the confidence of taking any sort of lengthy ride.....at a total loss.

 

[Duc_Brew]

It doesn't surprise me in the least that he couldn't find the short. I think everyone that's ever had the problem went through the same thing. It only happens when it's pinched just so, and you can't find a short that's not shorting. But I feel extremely confident that's the problem. I'm surprised you haven't had more feedback on this yet. But be patient, I KNOW there are others that have survived it. Holpefully they'll read your original post.

Good Luck,
DB

 

[Speeddog]

-------TOTAL EDIT 7/20/03----------------------------
Regarding the engine running/not running and spontaneous starter issue:

Per the '00 900 Owner's Manual wiring diagram:
The starter solenoid V+ is controlled by the main key switch first, then the kill switch, then the start switch. The ground wire from the starter solenoid/relay communicates with the ECU.

The only way that the starter can crank spontaneously when you turn the key on is:
A) A short in the right handgrip switch assembly, or the wire bundle leading to it. I think this is your culprit, as it was effected by turning the bars.
B) The starter solenoid V+ wire is shorted to V+ somewhere in the wiring on the chassis. Possible, but unlikely to be effected by turning the bars.

I don't think you have a bad starter solenoid because:
If the starter solenoid/relay contacts stick, the starter will crank over until you unhook the battery. If the solenoid has an internal short, it can crank on it's own also. If it has an internal open, the starter wont crank at all. You don't have these symptoms.

There is a single (Injection/Ignition) relay that controls V+ for the fuel pump and ignition coils. The V+ supply to that relay is controlled by the main key switch, then the kill switch. The ground is controlled by the ECU. You had the injection pump turn on and off by turning the bars. Again, this points to a short in the right handgrip switch assembly, or the wire bundle leading to it.

 

[jinx]

new update, but first, thank all of you for the indepth leads! I think it has helped rule some things out and get to the problem...so, spent the day with a tech, a dyno, and a phone.

No idea on the electrical glitch, but we did isolate the cause of the starting/running issues. The ecu that comes with the termignoni exhaust has a stock program to run at lower altitudes, and 5 out of 5 techs agreed that in denver the ecu in my bike is putting way too much gas in the system. Since I bought the bike with all mods done, I dont have the original ecu which is what they recommend trying before sending it out for a costly remap, or buying a power commander (way too much)....I dont suppose anyone has a stock ecu for a 2000 m900Si.e. lying around? I am keeping my eyes on ebay already. It seems there is no one in colorado that has the equipment to remap, the closest my tech knows about is "a guy in texas"...more time down...more money. Any other ideas?

Thanks again for all the leads!

 

[Retro]

Jinx, I can look monday, will let you know.....

 

[Speeddog]

Jinx,

I completely edited my previous response to the electrical system symptoms, after finding a wiring diagram for your '00 900. Take a look at it again. Using my '02 S4 diagram initially was a mistake......

Regarding the engine running poorly:

If the temp sensor is bad, it may run rich due to the ECU thinking the engine is always cold. If that's the scenario, the engine should start fine when cold, then act rich when it warms up. OTOH, the ECU may think the engine is hot, and the engine would be a beyatch when cold and fine when warmed up. Depends on how the temp sensor fails.

I think the ECU will set a "code" when a sensor goes bad, and the tech should be able to see that with his test equipment.

If the ECU is just making it too rich due to your altitude, which is likely, it will generally run worse at higher air temperatures. Seems to be what your bike is suffering from.

Options:

A) PC III will allow you global control of the fuel mixture. They can be had for under $300.

B) A fuel pressure modifier will let you reduce the fuel pressure.
For example:
Motowheels: fuel pressure modifier for $50.

Either their fuel pressure gauge kit or a quality oil-filled fuel pressure gauge from an automotive hotrod parts house would be a ggod thing, too. That way you know what you're setting the fuel pressure to.

 

[Retro]

I was unable to find out today, are you still looking? if you are
I will continue to search......

 

[jinx]

Retro, I guess I am still looking for a stock ecu, if only to have a firm starting point....my tech is out for 2 weeks on vacation, so short of being able to unplug one ecu and plug in another, there is not much I will be able to do. Even then, my only guage of success will be the ride quality (most important anyway) till we can throw it back on the dyno and check the readings.

The tech recommended trying a stock ecu first, then a remap, then the power commander. They would have tested out a stock one in my bike, but had none in stock. The remap guy in texas is quoted at $175 and 2 weeks turnaround, no guarantees it would work.
I was a bit wary about a power commander for two reasons, first I made the mistake of listening to a couple of local goons who said they were $700+!! Following posts here I know that not to be [email protected] is not too bad IF it fixes the problem. My other worry/question I guess is will I be able to adjust it correctly not knowing a whole lot about f.i.? I only figured out what a p.c. III does from researching posts here the past week. And I looked at my first dyno last thursday and thought the colors were reeeal purdy till the tech tried to explain what I was looking at. Hell, the information here has been far more useful than I have gotten out of the tech as far as learning about the basics of all this stuff. I fear I would be the bull in the china shop behind the wheel of the ecu?

My main goal is to get the bike running correct, not really to milk it for horsepower...but I am keeping my head burried in the computer reading as much as I can. My fiancee is gonna leave me.

 

[Retro]

ok, i will get to the shop this week for sure.

 

[Retro]

hey Jinx,
I thought that maybe Manley would have a stocker laying around.
I'm sorry they do not. They was wondering who it was in Texas? When you say sending it out do you mean the chip or the bike?
My understanding is you would want to dyno the bike.
Anyways, I talked to Tony at Manley he said to give Doug a call at Manley and he should be able to assist you.

http://www.manleycycle.com

k.

 

[Retro]

well don't get your hopes up but I called Delano and Tim thinks he may have one. he will have to look up the numbers and see if it is
00 m900 stock and said he would know by thursday..but I would still give Doug a call to hear what he thinks.....

 

[Retro]

okay Jinx,
I had a very nice talk with Doug Lofgren at Manley today.
I got so much info I do not know where to start.
I talked to him about you and he would prefer to talk to you about your problem and after hearing what he had to say I would agree that would absolutely be the best route for you in your present situation.
Better than me trying to explain anyway. I will still check with Delano for the stock ecu and let you know.
But if I understood Doug correctly you may not need it.
Let me know how it goes and I will let you know if Delano has an
ecu.

 

[jinx]

Retro...again, thanks for the lead! Talked to Doug today for almost an hour. This guy knows his stuff. He agreed a stock ECU would be far better than the termignoni/ducati supplied "upgrade" ECU at this altitude, but a proper remap would have the bike running tip top. AND he confirmed sending the ECU out to be remapped would be a hit or miss as you would need to dyno the bike to correctly adjust it....

However, he also informed me that if my dealer would just purchase the "Ultimap" software, they could adjust the ECU in house and do the required dynos. They already do this exact same procedure for their Triumph owners, as they did my old speed triple....so now it seems I need to light a match under the dealership on the issue. They just picked up MotoGuzzi too, so the software would work for both lines of bikes. We'll see on that...

If I can locate a stock unit to use even temporarily it would be interesting to compare dynos with the "performance" upgrade....I will follow up with a new post as you suggested with a more point of the matter wording, but wanted to reply to this thread for anyone watching it.

This board is fantastic...I have purchased 3 bikes from my dealer, and don't get me wrong I love the people there, but it's pretty rare they will offer up as much troubleshooting time/assistance as I have found here. Doug at Manley took time out of his day to speak with someone who will more than likely never set foot in his store 1000 mi away. That's good people.

Will follow up with any further enlightenment.

 

[Retro]

Thanks for the update Jinx,
I was waiting to hear if you spoke with Doug.
I am glad you had the opportunity to talk to him.
I also pulled a duh today as I was going to Delano to test a Tuono Race and I ran out of time. So I called Tim at Delano and told him I would try to make it Friday and promptly forgot I was calling him to ask if he had the ecu.....sorry. I will call tomorrow.
I'll keep my fingers crossed that the dyno guy gets the ultimap software.
k.

 

[Retro]

Hey Jinx,

well Delano does have one, but I talked to Doug again,
guess you know where you can find others also then,

good luck, and let me know how it goes.
Curious to know if they get the software.


Aloha,


kevin

 

[jinx]

the solutions...finally.

Fuel injection issue: Power Commander III plus a custom dyno tune. My dealer said if I purchased the PCIII through them ($300) they would do the custom map for free since I have had the issue since purchase. I heard: beer for the tech, his choice: new belgium raspberry wheat.

Intermittant kill switch / fuel pump...this problem again showed its head away from the shop. figures. so I grabbed naughty nurse nancy to aid me in some surgery....wait...wrong story....I carefully opened up the housing from the kill switch back to find all 3 wires had been severed at the point where they were zip tied to the small tubular frame below the headlight brackets. Did a sano splice job and hit the road.

ducati
termignoni pipe
therapy

haiku rocks

thanks for all the help
jinx