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Just read an article that hit Harley with a $12,000,000 fine for selling their "performance bossters", AKA Power Commanders.

All of the diesel super tuners have been hit. Suzuki has been hit. It appears that all the aftermarket companies will be seeing fines soon. You can bet the Termignoni and race ECU will be leaving our list of options in the near future.

The EPA had made an attempt to make it illegal to remove, delete, or alter any vehicle original emission equipment, even for off road competition and racing. This was later quashed by committee as too many aftermarket resellers panicked and knew it was aimed at putting them out of business. The EPA said last year that they knew something like 95% of all "off road competition only" products were being used on public streets. It appears that they are not holding the "consumer" liable for the installation and application but instead going after the manufacturer of the devices thus controlling the availability to purchase. Sounds like the backdoor attempt to make it legal to sell guns to anyone but illegal to sell ammunition.


Thoughts? What do you see for the future of our amazing machines? Everyone knows that the bikes run like crap and could actually be harmful to run them in their original ultra lean conditions as sent from the factory. Are we just going to see anemic and pitiful machines arriving with no way to set them to what the factory tested and wanted to build and sell us?

Article here: http://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/harley-davidson-emission-defeat-devices.html/

Note, the article is a poorly written 2 page click bait type article but it does shed some of what is going on.
 

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Just like the gov to regulate menial ****. My guess is their next step will be requiring some kind of licensing to be able to purchase aftermarket performance parts.

If they force them to make bikes so they can't be modified, I think I'm just gonna keep my modifiable bikes and never downgrade to a newer model.
 

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Elections have consequences. Those who keep voting for big government politicians will only cause more interference and restrictions in our daily lives. Bureaucracies must justify their existence by creating more regulations whether they are needed or not.
 

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Everyone knows that the bikes run like crap and could actually be harmful to run them in their original ultra lean conditions as sent from the factory.
I don't know this and don't agree with it. The only difference between the '09+ Ducati Monsters delivered to the EU and delivered to the USA is the California emissions box or "blue box" as it is called by the Ducati Factory guys in Bologna.

I'm pretty sure everything put on that bike as factory stock is designed to make it run as good and safely as possible while complying with the law.

Additionally I've been riding my Monster a lot the last few days and it occurred to me in a moment of temporary insanity that this bike is so powerful and awesome that maybe I need a lower powered machine so I don't get in trouble. :0 And then my sanity was restored and I went, "Naaaaaaaah.....".

Everyone knows the full Termi's are not street legal. Or at least they should. Although it's debatable wether this is because of sound or smog.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I'm pretty sure everything put on that bike as factory stock is designed to make it run as good and safely as possible while complying with the law.

In your own words you are correct, however the point is very wrong.


They did make the bike "run" as well as they could to make it comply with the current California emmsions laws.


However, until you've installed a set of factory Termi's and installed the correct ECU or unlocked the newer versions, you'll never understand what I'm talking about. There are thousands of threads on this site, and probably a million or more spread over other sites, that people complain about deceleration popping, ultra lean idle that causes bikes to overheat or not want to start again after a short ride, weird dips in power in the midrange. Lots of threads like that. I've been blessed to either purchase all my Ducati already kitted, or I immediately kitted them upon purchase. I don't have the problems with my machines that I've read so many other people complain about. For the years 2000 and up to about 2008 everyone swore by the Fatduc manipulator. It tricked the O2 sensor into richening up the idle which made the bikes a little easier to handle for those that didn't want to, or couldn't due to State laws, or didn't have the money to upgrade. There are even lots of threads that say Ducati wanted to make the front sprocket a 14 tooth but had to refrain as it made the exhaust decibel higher than allowed at lower RPM so there was yet another compromise made.


I'm glad you are happy your bike runs a little too powerful for you but you are quick to dismiss several bigger pictures of my rant.

A quick google will tell you that the bikes are designed for maximum power and grin factor. Our Factory then has to ham fist them into regulations that make them legal for export/import. You ever hear the line "you're trying to stuff 7 pounds of **** into a 5 pound bag"? There is a reason the Factory works hand in hand to provide you with the "unlock kit" to make the bike run the way the Factory designed it to work. The Factory is upgrading the statement to include the 7 pound bag you really needed. The Monster was never designed to be a race bike, in fact it's all wrong to race. Of course some will race it, people race armadillos and dachshunds around here for fun and wagering. So if the bike is a terrible race bike why would our Factory provide us with a "race kit"? Why doesn't the race kit include actual race bits? You used to be able to buy certain Yamaha bikes from the dealer and ask for the race spare kits. Those included all kinds of different sprockets, extra wheels, slicks, chains, pistons, camshafts, etc... That's a race kit.


The next point of my thread is that each year we as citizens lose a little more of our rights. Those things that the country was founded on. It's a slippery slope. We don't want pollution, nobody really does. What we don't want is gross negligence from huge corporations that dump harmful waste with no care and no penalties when people get hurt. What we really don't want on the other hand is regulations that tell us we cannot buy fuel powered chainsaws or lawn mowers such as many municipalities are now doing. You are taking away our choice and replacing it with a lesser quality option. Yes my motorcycle can pollute. On the other hand it pollutes much less than my truck. On the other hand, both pollute much less than the factories in town.

Why not regulate the real polluters first?

This is the same argument I see everyday with the American Red Snapper debate and the awful restrictions to the average recreational fisherman. The gulf is littered with ARS, in fact so much so they have earned the nickname "ocean pigeon". They make great eating too. They were fished way too heavily but previous restrictions allowed the stocks to rebound. Now that there is an excess the rules heavily favor commercial operations over the rights of the rec guys. They allow commercial guys to rape the ocean of millions of tons of these fish a year when the rec guys only get 9 days to legally fish for them. The commercial guys have been found hundreds of times to be way over their legal daily limits but the fines do not deter them as there is no penalty against their permits to operate. So daily these guys go out and grossly over fish, dodge tiny infractions that do not outweigh the risks, then complain daily to the government that the rec guys are taking too many fish and the system needs more regulations to prevent the rec guy from getting out there.

It's just tiring to see the average Joe constantly getting the stop and frisk from the feds while the real criminals get a free pass.
 

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... The next point of my thread is that each year we as citizens lose a little more of our rights. Those things that the country was founded on. It's a slippery slope. ... It's just tiring to see the average Joe constantly getting the stop and frisk from the feds while the real criminals get a free pass.
QFT.

PhilB
 

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Mike I did not mean to be dismissive and I did miss your bigger picture points so thanks for the detailed reply.

There are thousands of threads on this site, and probably a million or more spread over other sites, that people complain about deceleration popping, ultra lean idle that causes bikes to overheat or not want to start again after a short ride, weird dips in power in the midrange.
I did not know this was due to the "fitting 7lbs in a 5lb bag". I attributed the popping, overheating, and difficulty starting to being part of the Ducati experience with this Monster since I read about it so many other times with no one having a real answer. Glad to hear that it should not be this way. Actually I just read the detailed thread about removing the exhaust servo and flapper valve and that's going to be my first step.

...

The Monster was never designed to be a race bike, in fact it's all wrong to race. Of course some will race it, people race armadillos and dachshunds around here for fun and wagering.
I took mine to the track a couple time because I wanted to be the hooligan my bike makes me feel like without worrying about cars and speeding tickets :devil


The next point of my thread is that each year we as citizens lose a little more of our rights. ... It's a slippery slope.
Why not regulate the real polluters first? ...
It's just tiring to see the average Joe constantly getting the stop and frisk from the feds while the real criminals get a free pass.
Amen. With our water crisis in California they make so much noise about having low pressure shower heads (so low you can't rinse the soap out of your hair) and turning off the water when you brush your teeth, while farmers up and down the valley are planing nut orchards on a government subsidy. Orchards consume something like 80% of our states water, and that was before the new plantings. They are completely nuts, government people and conservationists. Penny smart and pound foolish.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Marlene I know in California you had the same water issues we had in Central Texas for the last 5 years.

My favorite highlights went like this.

Voluntary water restrictions.

Mandatory water restrictions.

Stage 5 mandatory water restrictions.

If you used more than a couple thousand gallons in a month the tiered water pricing would slam you with high water bills and fines.

So the people listened and conserved water. New toilets everywhere. New shower heads. No watering of lawns. No outdoor water features. No car washing.


So they did indeed conserve. We did everything we were supposed to. We did it right. Then our water bills spiked to a new level. An Additional $30 or so a month "service fee", forever. Seems we conserved so much we put the water treatment plants out of business. I believe that happened in California as well.

So we do as we are told and then they hit us again. And again. And again. And...................


Make it stop please.
 

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Evidently the Euro4 emissions standard is having an impact on manufacturers' bike offerings next year. I read where the Moto Guzzi 1200cc engine will not be made Euro4 compliant.
 

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Did Harley actually sell the "super tuners" and install them on the production bikes? I don't think that they could be held liable for something that customers bought on their own from a "super tuner" company and installed themselves.

My guess is, yes. That is probably why they are getting f'd over by the EPA.

Regardless... I agree, it is bullsh*t.

Let's all buy electric bikes that run on batteries... Batteries that manufacturers are not allowed to manufacture in the US due to the EPA. What a joke.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Harley sells their tuning and exhaust kit separately just like Ducati, while Harley calls it the "Screamin Eagle" line, Ducati sells it as the Termignoni line.

Just like Ducati, Harley doesn't make all the parts in the kit but they install them in the service bays knowing damn well they are being used on the streets. It appears that now makes them liable.

If that makes Harley liable, then it makes every single company liable. Ducati, Triumph, MV, etc.. Ford, Chevy, doesn't matter. K&N air filters, Flow Master exhausts, Bully Dog diesel chips. It won't be long before we start getting nailed for not using OEM oil filters.
 
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