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Battery acid on my engine - (bad, DNA, bad)

84K views 602 replies 101 participants last post by  ColdNeck 
Higgie & Fillmore talked about sealed batteries in this thread -

http://www.ducatimonster.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=tech;action=display;num=1054307937;start=2

Yuasa YTX9-BS and Hawker Odyssey PC625, respectively. However, they have early model Air-Coolers, so their battery app may not be right.

I think us S4 guys need to keep in mind that our batteries lay on their sides, it may make a difference. It may be the freakin' problem.......But all of us on this thread have the late model frames. You guys with the air-coolers, are your batteries laying on their sides?

I'm going to check around for battery apps....
 
I've found a little preliminary battery info to share here.
Accuracy is not certain, so YMMV.

My OEM S4 battery is a GS brand, GT12B-4. It is described as a sealed, maintenance free, non spill, Absorbed Glass Mat battery. No free liquid acid per se, the acid is absorbed in fiberglass matting between the plates.

The construction is fundamentally the most modern conventional battery. Other manufacturers have similar batteries. There are several replacements I found, Yuasa YT 12B-BS and PowerSource WP12B-4.

I was involved a tiny bit with an advanced battery project several years ago. Batteries can get into a "thermal runaway" mode, a heat/chemical activity problem. I don't remember if that was related to electrical load also, IE could the battery do a "thermal runaway" just sitting there, or did it need to be delivering or receiving a lot of current also. I'll see if I can find any of the guys who were involved in that project.

We have talked about whether it's bad batteries due to design or construction, overheating due to location, or maybe the regulator goes wacko and overcharges.......
Lots of potential causes.

Mark, Tom, Matt and myself all live in south/west states, where it does get particularly hot. Strati's in the northeast, it can get plenty hot there too. Batteries don't like getting baked.

The concept of going pro-active is self preservation. Mark & Tom are getting the doubletalk runaround shaftjob from DNA, and those of us who have not had a problem yet should be concerned. If DNA was stepping up to the plate to deal with the problem in a timely manner, we could ride on in ignorant bliss and have DNA fix it when it goes bad. Mark and Tom are not feeling the love from DNA.

I'm going to call Jer Stewart right now. IMHO, all of us with S4's and '02 and later Monsters should call her and express our concern about a potential problem (if we're lucky and haven't had a problem yet....).

Tom, thanks for Jer's number.
 
Tom,

I think you got as much info out of Jason as he is allowed to say. He said a lot, without being able to see the failed battery.

In my experience of talking with companies on component failures, they will only say so much.

With my technogeek hat on, I think that the convective heating is the largest factor here. That does not mean that some heat shielding won't help.

mdozier, go for it on the shield, and the thermal sensor. Any info on how hot it actually gets under there will help us all in dealing with the battery folks.

I've got some thermal sensors myself, just gotta find the blasted things....

The relocation spot that looks the most promising to me is under the seat, next to the shock. I don't know if there's enough room, especially when the swingarm comes up, but it looks close. Problem is, that's moving a heavy component backwards on the bike, which does not seem to be a good thing on Monsters.
There is room up next to the front cylinder on the left side ( at least for the S4's). Visually it's hideous, but..... it's moving the weight forward, and there's not much damage potential if the battery leaks.
 
I called Jer yesterday, didn't get through, of course, but left a message about my concerns on the leaking battery issue.

A guy named Josh called me back today, said he was working with Jer. BTW, his number showed on caller ID as ( 408 ) 253-0499, same as Jer's number.

He said they hadn't heard much about leaking batteries........He called (Honda) Ducati Peninsula, and said they told him they had only seen one leaking battery on an S4 Foggy.

I told him I had heard of several, 2 to be specific, and both guys were pretty hot about the way they were being treated. Seemed like a decent guy, just didn't seem up to speed yet.....

At least there's another warm body at DNA doing Customer "Service".
 
Matt,

This is from a previous post by Tom:

Ducati - Monster S4 2001-2002 916cc
Battery Family: Maintenance Free
Battery Type: YT12B-BS
(hold down must be modified to accept battery)

Voltage: 12
Capacity: 10
Dimensions: 6" x 2 3/4" x 5 1/8"
Weight: 7.6 lbs.
Metric Dimensions: 150mm x 69.0mm x 130.0mm
Metric Weight: 130 kg
Polarity:
Acid Volume: 0.50
Amps: 1.0
C.C.A.: 125

Copyright 2003. All Rights Reserved. Yuasa Battery, Inc.

I'm a little concerned if 80 deg C ( 176 deg F ) is going to be enough, we'll find out shortly. On a moderately hot day, my coolant temp got up to 215 deg F. I imagine we'll see "hot soak" temps noticeably higher than that.
 
I'm going to do a heat soak test right now.

I'll post results as soon as I have 'em.
 
This is not a conclusive test. Several factors were not what I liked, but at least it's a first data point.

Battery Heat Soak Test #1

Ambient Air Temp - 92 deg F
Humidity - 63%
Wind - Mild to Breezy
Engine RPM - 2000

Engine Run Time - 30 min.

Max Coolant Temp - 248 deg F @ 30 min.

Max Oil Temp - 230 deg F @ 30 min.

Max Battery Temp - 135 deg F @ 26 min.

Things wrong with this test:

Measuring air temp around the battery, not really the best. The only equipment I have right now.

Breezy conditions, not brutal enough.

CONCLUSION

Air temp around the battery doesn't get all that bad. 43 deg F above ambient is tolerable, IMO. Didn't measure the actual temp of the battery, so I'm not totally satisfied.

Stock cooling fans are inadequate. Steady climb of 1.5 deg F per minute after minute 6, until temp got to 248 deg F and I terminated running. I'm not impressed. It's got a radiator and fans, ambient air temp was not that bad. It should NOT march towards meltdown.

PLAN

I will test again, measuring actual battery temperature, with a thermocouple held against the battery.

I will test again, at normal idle, to see if the engine temp still wants to run away.

PS - I've got an Excel file and graph of the Ambient, Battery, Coolant and Oil temps versus time. I'll E-Mail it to anyone interested, Private Message me and I'll shoot you the file.
 
S4Senna / Dan (?).

Sorry to hear about your battery. Unfortunately, you have joined a rapidly growing club.

That makes 6 folks on this thread alone that have had batteries pop on their S4. The current stats on the Owner Bike Survey show 62 S4 owners on this list.

This is starting to get REALLY ugly. I'm calling Jer again.
 
Dan,
Sorry I blew right past it before, but in regards to the photos......

Let's get a folder set up for this. Since they are your photos, it would probably be better if you did it. Here's what to do:

Send an Email to here: webmaster@ducatimonster.org
Subject : Photo Gallery
Body: Hey, I'd like to have a folder to put pictures of my wounded S4 in....or something like that.

Michael Moore will probably be the guy that does it.
 
Just checked, the battery in my bike is the "old style".

F@<K !
--------------edit------------------------
When you go to put your battery back in, put the bolts in the terminals first. Don't want one of those little nut plates to fall out.......DAMHIK
 
Didn't catch that ...............
Thanks for the clarification.
 
This is absolute insanity. I'm astounded that DNA is operating in this fashion.

What do you folks say about contacting Cycle News about this?
Maybe kick this game up a notch?

Thought about the regular mags, but the lag time is fierce. We could get them in the loop as well.

I_absolutely_agree with CVC and MarkV, let's keep this professional. No personal threats, no character assassinations, no lewd photos. The more organized and serious we are, the quicker we're going to get action.
 
SONOFAB!TCH!!!!!!!!!!!
SONOFAB!TCH!!!!!!!!!!!
SONOFAB!TCH!!!!!!!!!!!

Matt, I'm gonna buy you a case of beer or whatever you drink.

Just checked mine and it had just started to leak. Looks like damage is minimal.

I'm going to disassemble, taking pictures, and then call Jer.
This is F@<king insane.

That makes 16. Or is it more? :mad:
 
Call placed to Jer. We'll see how fast the response is now that I've got a problem.

When I called the two times before, with no problem, just concerns, I got a call back from a Josh within a day or so.
Josh said he was helping Jer with customer service.

Luckily, damage is very very minimal. I'm not going to f@<k with a dealer for a couple bolts and a little paint.

Battery is quarantined away from anything of value.

Recent riding :

7/4 - Short test ride after trying to chase down recent vibration - 2117 miles

7/8 - Medium ride, Idyllwild loop, 1/3 twisties, 2/3 streets and superslab, air temps 85 - 100 degF - 2253 miles

7/9 - Medium ride, Bike Nite in HB, all superslab and street, air temps 65 - 95 degF - 2351 miles


As I recall, I checked the battery not more than a week ago. Had it out and in my hands. It was OK then.

Regarding the failure mode here, look at this picture:



Notice the much accused vent holes. No evidence of leakage from the holes.

The wet areas are where the battery sits against the tray.

IMO, the battery starts leaking at the joint on the top plate, or the joint of the whole top cover to the main body.

I think this picture blows the "overcharging" as a failure mode out of the water. As does the recent events of other batteries leaking after sitting for a day or more.

My extrapolation of the failure mode is this:

Battery continues to leak undetected.
Enough acid leaks out that battery performance degrades.
Charging system ramps up to compensate.
Battery gets so low on acid that it starts to heat up due to charging.
Heating forces more acid out through the leak or the vents.
Death spiral of more heat, less acid until the battery pops.
All useful evidence is obliterated by splattered acid.

Gotta go, I'll post more soon.
 
My thoughts in general right now:

A) No more GS batteries in my future.

B) My replacement battery will not be installed in the OEM location. I thought it was a cr@ppy idea when I saw it. Now I'm sure.

C) Battery will be installed in a fully closed box with a drain, so if it leaks or pops, it will just leak on the ground.

D) Battery companies can say what they want, and can deliver me a battery in a hermetically sealed Inconel case for all I care. (C) above is where the battery is going.

E) I'm gonna go out & have a good time with my SO, have a couple of stiff drinks and forget this mess for a couple hours.
 
Yuasa makes a same sized battery, YT 12B-BS. Will it leak? Can't say.

I don't hold a lot of hope for a low profile battery that will fit vertical and still have the power necessary.

Odyssey makes some batteries that others on this BB have had good luck with, but their smallest one is a good bit larger, so I don't think it will fit in the original location, even with a different tray.

As far as as different battery voiding the warranty.....several folks on this thread aren't finding that the warranty is of much help. :mad:
 
Just called DNA customer service since I didn't get a call back from my message that I left yesterday.

Receptionist said that the customer service people ( Jer Stewart and Josh ___ , as far as I know) are at Laguna Seca.

Hopefully they are receiving lots of in person feedback on this problem. Maybe face-to-face discussions will modify their philosophy on dealing with this.
 
Matt, glad to hear you're back on the road, or at least close to it...

I'm looking for a Yuasa right now. I've used them in the past on other bikes without problems. But, never in a laid on the side, shake'n'bake environment. We shall see how this all plays out...
 
Matt, what kind of plastic sheeting are you using?

I'd like to temporarily do the same thing, but some plastics aren't very resistant to sulfuric acid.

Just wondering.......
 
According to the Yuasa website, the YT12B-BS is the proper replacement battery for the '02 S4.



So I'm supposed to pull the red tape off of the top of the battery, exposing the cells. Then pull the black cap strip off of the acid bottle rack, and pour the acid into the cells. Then put that black cap strip over the opening to the cells.

Then charge, install on my bike, then shake'n'bake.
With that cap strip down near the bottom of the battery.

Why do I feel like that's not going to work?

I'm calling Yuasa in the morning.
 
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