[DucatiTerminator]

This is an OLD thread but it came up during some research...

I bought my 09 696 brand new from the local dealer and they had the Race kit already installed (Termi's, Race ECU, the DP filter) and I had to really cajole them into giving me the original stock parts. I rode it that way since 2011 up until now. The exhaust would pop during deceleration, and I'd always smell like exhaust fumes. I decided enough with the smell and the loud exhaust, and even the silencer inserts for the Termi's only quieted it down a tad.

So yesterday I went back to the stock ECU, stock paper filter, and stock cats/silencers. It didn't change much. The exhaust fumes are better but still there. It still kind of pops. And the loudness level is about on-par with the Termi's using the inserts. The DP filter is like a K&N but the dealer never oiled it new. I had oiled it myself around 2011 or 2012. But over the past 10 years working and tuning modern cars like Ford EcoBoost, I learned the K&N style filters are worthless for performance and have verifiable reduced filtration efficiency. So I went back to the paper filter.

IIRC, many of the DP exhaust/filterECU kits came with Sprint air filters which do not require oil. On the other hand, most of the oiled filters, like K&N and and BMC for example, come pre-oiled from the manufacturer. If your filter was a Sprint, you likely changed it's filtration characteristics when you oiled it yourself. For the record, Sprint filters are cleaned by blowing compressed air in the opposite direction of air intake.

I stopped using K&N over 20 years ago. BTW, are you basing your claims based off of dyno results? I've had decent results with BMC, MWR, and Sprint performance air filters. In fact, one of my very high performance Ducati superbikes came with a Sprint air filter from the factory while remaining Euro 4 compliant. No disrespect, but I totally disagree with your generic claim that non-paper filters are worthless for performance. A car can have much larger air box than a bike which has some major space constraints. Apples and oranges.

 

[metroplex]

IIRC, many of the DP exhaust/filterECU kits came with Sprint air filters which do not require oil. On the other hand, most of the oiled filters, like K&N and and BMC for example, come pre-oiled from the manufacturer. If your filter was a Sprint, you likely changed it's filtration characteristics when you oiled it yourself. For the record, Sprint filters are cleaned by blowing compressed air in the opposite direction of air intake.

I stopped using K&N over 20 years ago. BTW, are you basing your claims based off of dyno results? I've had decent results with BMC, MWR, and Sprint performance air filters. In fact, one of my very high performance Ducati superbikes came with a Sprint air filter from the factory while remaining Euro 4 compliant. No disrespect, but I totally disagree with your generic claim that non-paper filters are worthless for performance. A car can have much larger air box than a bike which has some major space constraints. Apples and oranges.

Never heard of Sprint, but about 10 years ago there was some debate over whether the Ducati Performance filter should be oiled. Some got theirs from the dealers/box already oiled. Others were told they had to be oiled out of the box because of shipping reasons. Others said it was supposed to be dry. Looking at the DP filter, it is cotton gauze with significant holes. It would not filter anywhere close to what it should be filtering if left unoiled. This isn't a dry element like AFE, which still isn't as effective as paper.

That said, the Ducati Performance filter is stamped 96452809B, Sofegi Filtration, Racing Use Only.

And the 696 air filter is the opposite flow direction from traditional filters. The dirty side is on the inside of the cylinder, so the pleats exposed on the outside is the cleanside. You'd have to blow air from the inside out. And the weak cotton gauze used on this filter doesn't seem like the AEM or AFE dry style filter elements, it looks like the ducati perf filter should be oiled.

I base my claims on actual flow testing data as well as dyno data. The paper filters were not a restriction even on twin turbo engines flowing 48-55+ lb/min in terms of power. In terms of pressure drop, it was something like 0.1 psi at most. Switching between K&N, AEM, AFE, and paper yielded no discernible difference in flow rates or power output. That said, those were twin-turbo V6s flowing 40-50+ lb/min of air mass. It's more important to have more surface area with more pleats and deeper pleats. In the end, it was far more important to keep the turbos clean and the engine oil clean, so running paper filters was better.

Looking at K&N's flow data for their DU-6908, converting cfm to lb/min is like 5-6 lb/min. Not a whole lot. My experience with naturally aspirated engines and airboxes is that the flow delta between a K&N-style and paper is minimal given similar conditions and parameters. The 696 engine is fairly small and its air demands aren't huge.

 

[DucatiTerminator]

Never heard of Sprint, but about 10 years ago there was some debate over whether the Ducati Performance filter should be oiled. Some got theirs from the dealers/box already oiled. Others were told they had to be oiled out of the box because of shipping reasons. Others said it was supposed to be dry. Looking at the DP filter, it is cotton gauze with significant holes. It would not filter anywhere close to what it should be filtering if left unoiled. This isn't a dry element like AFE, which still isn't as effective as paper.

That said, the Ducati Performance filter is stamped 96452809B, Sofegi Filtration, Racing Use Only.

And the 696 air filter is the opposite flow direction from traditional filters. The dirty side is on the inside of the cylinder, so the pleats exposed on the outside is the cleanside. You'd have to blow air from the inside out. And the weak cotton gauze used on this filter doesn't seem like the AEM or AFE dry style filter elements, it looks like the ducati perf filter should be oiled.

I base my claims on actual flow testing data as well as dyno data. The paper filters were not a restriction even on twin turbo engines flowing 48-55+ lb/min in terms of power. In terms of pressure drop, it was something like 0.1 psi at most. Switching between K&N, AEM, AFE, and paper yielded no discernible difference in flow rates or power output. That said, those were twin-turbo V6s flowing 40-50+ lb/min of air mass. It's more important to have more surface area with more pleats and deeper pleats. In the end, it was far more important to keep the turbos clean and the engine oil clean, so running paper filters was better.

Looking at K&N's flow data for their DU-6908, converting cfm to lb/min is like 5-6 lb/min. Not a whole lot. My experience with naturally aspirated engines and airboxes is that the flow delta between a K&N-style and paper is minimal given similar conditions and parameters. The 696 engine is fairly small and its air demands aren't huge.

I'm not sure which parties were involved in the debate (forum?, dealers?, tuners?) but I've never known Sprint filters to be oiled. That said, Ducati hasn't always sourced DP kit items from one source and most items are third party. The DP part number will not indicate manufacturer, and most of the time there are no manufacturer markings. For reference, my friends are performance suppliers to Ducati SPA and the untrained eye is unable to tell that they were manufactured by them. Sprint uses a media made of polyester as opposed to cotton and claim filtration of 80-micron particles while maintaining high air permeability per a UK University study. The science behind their material is pretty interesting if you're into that kind of thing. A friend of mine's team has been using them in MotoGP (since their switch to Aprilia as are some teams in WSBK/WSS. It goes without saying that performance is their priority.

I'm not that big on cars. but the brands you mention (AEM/AFE) are tuner car brands, no? I'm not an expert on flow dynamics, but last I checked, how a motorcycle engine gets air is vastly more constrained compared to how a car engine gets air. I've seen tuner cars get a performance increase by running an intake tube with a filter on the end. In this day of highly efficient airboxes, I've rarely seen a motorcycle make more usable power by removing it's airbox. I can count on one hand how many bikes were offered with a stock turbo in the past 40 years. And I can count on both hands how many turbo bikes I've seen on streetbikes. As very few bikes use forced induction, I maintain you're comparing apples to oranges. The only way you're going to get more air to your intake on most motorcycles is through increased air flow which is via a higher flowing air filter. If you still have the DP filter, I'd be very curious if you can source the manufacturer. If it is indeed a Sprint filter, oiling it may have possibly increased particle filtration efficiency while decreasing air flow, counter to it's design.

 

[metroplex]

I'm not sure which parties were involved in the debate (forum?, dealers?, tuners?) but I've never known Sprint filters to be oiled. That said, Ducati hasn't always sourced DP kit items from one source and most items are third party. The DP part number will not indicate manufacturer, and most of the time there are no manufacturer markings. For reference, my friends are performance suppliers to Ducati SPA and the untrained eye is unable to tell that they were manufactured by them. Sprint uses a media made of polyester as opposed to cotton and claim filtration of 80-micron particles while maintaining high air permeability per a UK University study. The science behind their material is pretty interesting if you're into that kind of thing. A friend of mine's team has been using them in MotoGP (since their switch to Aprilia as are some teams in WSBK/WSS. It goes without saying that performance is their priority.

I'm not that big on cars. but the brands you mention (AEM/AFE) are tuner car brands, no? I'm not an expert on flow dynamics, but last I checked, how a motorcycle engine gets air is vastly more constrained compared to how a car engine gets air. I've seen tuner cars get a performance increase by running an intake tube with a filter on the end. In this day of highly efficient airboxes, I've rarely seen a motorcycle make more usable power by removing it's airbox. I can count on one hand how many bikes were offered with a stock turbo in the past 40 years. And I can count on both hands how many turbo bikes I've seen on streetbikes. As very few bikes use forced induction, I maintain you're comparing apples to oranges. The only way you're going to get more air to your intake on most motorcycles is through increased air flow which is via a higher flowing air filter. If you still have the DP filter, I'd be very curious if you can source the manufacturer. If it is indeed a Sprint filter, oiling it may have possibly increased particle filtration efficiency while decreasing air flow, counter to it's design.

The Ducati Performance filter for my 696 is made by Sogefi according to the molded polyurethane part (I believe I mentioned this above). It came out of my airbox completely white, like if you washed a K&N filter and let it dry. I just looked up Sprint's air filter for the Hypermotard 796 which should use the same filter, and it's a totally different color and appearance. Sprint Filter Bike

And yes there was a big debate in the past (10+ years ago) where some claimed these were oiled out of the box, they don't need to be oiled, or they have to be oiled by the dealer prior to installation. Either way, it was cotton gauze with holes you can see through. Not anything like the polyester dry elements from AEM/AFE where you use compressed air to clean. The Sogefi looked like cotton gauze, not polyester.

AEM/AFE make aftermarket air filters. I believe AEM is now owned by K&N. AFE and AEM are the ones that tend to produce the dry polyester filters like the Sprint you mentioned, which is why I mentioned them.

GM/Chevy sourced this weird polyester filter from the factory for my turbocharged Cobalt SS Turbo (LNF engine, first used in Europe on the Opel GT) that you couldn't see through, but you could tap out most of the dirt/debris. Otherwise most OEMs use paper from the factory.

The naturally aspirated engines require even less air mass, so the filter media is less important to flow with minimal pressure drop. I was looking at the K&N and AFE oiled filters for the naturally aspirated 3.5L/3.7L Duratec applications and there wasn't a statistically significant flow difference between paper. The only big difference is the paper filter has better filtration. Unless your engine specifically demands a higher air mass flow, the filter won't make a difference. The engine is basically a pump.

The project car I have now runs the 2.7L EcoBoost V6 (twin-turbo) and has a paper filter. Ford uses this same filter on the Ford GT, except each of the GT's turbo intake tracts uses one of these filters. I've tried other filters and never saw a statistically significant difference in pressure drop or flow. But I do know the filtration efficiency of paper has been proven to be much higher, and that's better for turbo impellers as well as the oiling system.

K&N does flow testing for their filters, so I looked up DU-6908 and based on its CFM, the air mass flow is like 5-6 lb/min. I can bet you an airport beer that the stock paper filter isn't restrictive and this Ducati Performance/Race kit is a bunch of hoopla for 1-2 horsepower at the most and mainly from the catless Termignoni exhaust.

In any case, I have the stock paper filter back on since my main interest is filtration efficiency. I never was that impressed with the "DP Race" kit for my 696.

 

[LeFraussie]

This is an OLD thread but it came up during some research...

I bought my 09 696 brand new from the local dealer and they had the Race kit already installed (Termi's, Race ECU, the DP filter) and I had to really cajole them into giving me the original stock parts. I rode it that way since 2011 up until now. The exhaust would pop during deceleration, and I'd always smell like exhaust fumes. I decided enough with the smell and the loud exhaust, and even the silencer inserts for the Termi's only quieted it down a tad.

So yesterday I went back to the stock ECU, stock paper filter, and stock cats/silencers. It didn't change much. The exhaust fumes are better but still there. It still kind of pops. And the loudness level is about on-par with the Termi's using the inserts. The DP filter is like a K&N but the dealer never oiled it new. I had oiled it myself around 2011 or 2012. But over the past 10 years working and tuning modern cars like Ford EcoBoost, I learned the K&N style filters are worthless for performance and have verifiable reduced filtration efficiency. So I went back to the paper filter.

For the street the main benefit of the DP filter (cotton gauze same as K&N/MWR/BMC) is that it's reusable. A service kit is cheaper than a paper filter and will last you the life of the bike. However it should be re-oiled every year during annual service unlike paper filter which are replaced based on mileage.

The performance aspect is irrelevant IMHO. Especially on a M696 which has the same airbox as the almost twice bigger M1100.

One part of the kit that you did not mention is the airbox lid which would have the biggest impact on AFR.
Check that you have it.

 

[metroplex]

For the street the main benefit of the DP filter (cotton gauze same as K&N/MWR/BMC) is that it's reusable. A service kit is cheaper than a paper filter and will last you the life of the bike. However it should be re-oiled every year during annual service unlike paper filter which are replaced based on mileage.

The performance aspect is irrelevant IMHO. Especially on a M696 which has the same airbox as the almost twice bigger M1100.

One part of the kit that you did not mention is the airbox lid which would have the biggest impact on AFR.
Check that you have it.

Thank you. Interesting story on the airbox lid. So there was a lot of debate about this as well. Some, like me, did not get a new airbox lid from the Ducati Performance/Race kit. Others said they got one. I asked a few dealers at the time, including my local one (which went out of business) and they were clueless about it. I contacted Pro Italia (when their parts department was still based in California before being sold off) and they knew exactly what I was talking about and ordered a new one for me. It basically has 3 holes cut out from the top to allow more air to go in. The dealer installed the DP filter but never included this airbox lid, so i presume the DP kit never included the lid. I know some got the lid, others did not as well.

 

[DucatiTerminator]

The Ducati Performance filter for my 696 is made by Sogefi according to the molded polyurethane part (I believe I mentioned this above). It came out of my airbox completely white, like if you washed a K&N filter and let it dry. I just looked up Sprint's air filter for the Hypermotard 796 which should use the same filter, and it's a totally different color and appearance. Sprint Filter Bike

And yes there was a big debate in the past (10+ years ago) where some claimed these were oiled out of the box, they don't need to be oiled, or they have to be oiled by the dealer prior to installation. Either way, it was cotton gauze with holes you can see through. Not anything like the polyester dry elements from AEM/AFE where you use compressed air to clean. The Sogefi looked like cotton gauze, not polyester.

AEM/AFE make aftermarket air filters. I believe AEM is now owned by K&N. AFE and AEM are the ones that tend to produce the dry polyester filters like the Sprint you mentioned, which is why I mentioned them.

GM/Chevy sourced this weird polyester filter from the factory for my turbocharged Cobalt SS Turbo (LNF engine, first used in Europe on the Opel GT) that you couldn't see through, but you could tap out most of the dirt/debris. Otherwise most OEMs use paper from the factory.

The naturally aspirated engines require even less air mass, so the filter media is less important to flow with minimal pressure drop. I was looking at the K&N and AFE oiled filters for the naturally aspirated 3.5L/3.7L Duratec applications and there wasn't a statistically significant flow difference between paper. The only big difference is the paper filter has better filtration. Unless your engine specifically demands a higher air mass flow, the filter won't make a difference. The engine is basically a pump.

The project car I have now runs the 2.7L EcoBoost V6 (twin-turbo) and has a paper filter. Ford uses this same filter on the Ford GT, except each of the GT's turbo intake tracts uses one of these filters. I've tried other filters and never saw a statistically significant difference in pressure drop or flow. But I do know the filtration efficiency of paper has been proven to be much higher, and that's better for turbo impellers as well as the oiling system.

K&N does flow testing for their filters, so I looked up DU-6908 and based on its CFM, the air mass flow is like 5-6 lb/min. I can bet you an airport beer that the stock paper filter isn't restrictive and this Ducati Performance/Race kit is a bunch of hoopla for 1-2 horsepower at the most and mainly from the catless Termignoni exhaust.

In any case, I have the stock paper filter back on since my main interest is filtration efficiency. I never was that impressed with the "DP Race" kit for my 696.

Thanks for the info. I am completely unfamiliar with Sogefi with exception of a mention of an OEM filter out of a 848 or something similar. I may have my original 1098R filter (similar) lying around somewhere but don't remember seeing that brand on it either. I imagine it's mostly irrelevant as most motorcycle OEM air filter are paper. In this case, while a performance filter will yield some improvement, airbox volume is somewhat restrictive, and bigger gains are made by fitting a larger airbox. In some cases you are relegated to whatever filter will fit the airbox. In the case of the WSBK spec airbox I have for an older ZX10R, the only filter that will fit is an custom filter made by MWR (sponge matrix), for example.

Car applications are very much out of my wheelhouse. with the exception of changing the intake on a Fiat 500 Abarth which seemed to only increase intake noise or adding an Air Raid system to my SUV (same). I doubt both of these applications benefitted from additional air flow. I'm even less familiar with the EcoBoost V6. There is a non-EcoBoost Ford GT sitting in the back of the warehouse that I'll be prepping for sale very soon. If I have to change the air filter, I'll take note of what filter came stock. I suspect it's paper as well.

In my experience, most DP "Race" kits are mild in general, designed to uncork an emission restricted, lean-running stock bike. The ECU's are plug and play and not designed to be programmable (by most). On a few higher spec bikes, however, some of the older kits contained Corse parts and yielded more than a couple of ponies. I suspect your kit gave you more than 1-2 hp (especially if you had it mapped for your bike), but not much more.

 

[DucatiTerminator]

Thank you. Interesting story on the airbox lid. So there was a lot of debate about this as well. Some, like me, did not get a new airbox lid from the Ducati Performance/Race kit. Others said they got one. I asked a few dealers at the time, including my local one (which went out of business) and they were clueless about it. I contacted Pro Italia (when their parts department was still based in California before being sold off) and they knew exactly what I was talking about and ordered a new one for me. It basically has 3 holes cut out from the top to allow more air to go in. The dealer installed the DP filter but never included this airbox lid, so i presume the DP kit never included the lid. I know some got the lid, others did not as well.

PI's parts department is still there (I just picked up parts last week), and they can still get most items from the DP catalog (the catalog is harder to get than the parts actually, lol). The online store, on the other hand was sold to AMS in Dallas. Who was your local dealer that went out of business? My local dealer was sold to Wheels in Motion, and Hyundai now occupies their former location, lol.

 

[metroplex]

PI's parts department is still there (I just picked up parts last week), and they can still get most items from the DP catalog (the catalog is harder to get than the parts actually, lol). The online store, on the other hand was sold to AMS in Dallas. Who was your local dealer that went out of business? My local dealer was sold to Wheels in Motion, and Hyundai now occupies their former location, lol.

Ah, that makes more sense. I was tracking that AMS in Dallas took over for the online parts and it never was the same as PI. I read all the Hollywood stars (Matt LeBlanc, Peter Fonda, Orlando Bloom) go to Pro Italia for parts/service, so I figure that shop must know their stuff. I wasn't wrong because they were able to order that airbox lid right away.

My local dealer was TT Motorcycles. Michigan had only 2 main Ducati dealers for years and years. Ducati Detroit is now the big one in the area, and they are based off Woodward Ave in Birmingham (swanky part of that area). So during Woodward Dream Cruise they usually have some stuff going on.

 

[DucatiTerminator]

Ah, that makes more sense. I was tracking that AMS in Dallas took over for the online parts and it never was the same as PI. I read all the Hollywood stars (Matt LeBlanc, Peter Fonda, Orlando Bloom) go to Pro Italia for parts/service, so I figure that shop must know their stuff. I wasn't wrong because they were able to order that airbox lid right away.

My local dealer was TT Motorcycles. Michigan had only 2 main Ducati dealers for years and years. Ducati Detroit is now the big one in the area, and they are based off Woodward Ave in Birmingham (swanky part of that area). So during Woodward Dream Cruise they usually have some stuff going on.

I bought my first Ducati from PI in 2001 and though the staff has changed, the owner (since they opened) has maintained the original DNA of the shop, and it still ranks up there as one of my favorites. I've known the owner of AMS for a long time (an awesome and very knowledgeable ex-Kiwi racer if you haven't met him yet). Love his shop, but I agree that there was a little something special about the way that PI did things. I heard of TT, but unfortunately never had a chance to visit. I hope to visit Ducati Detroit the next time I'm out visiting one of my friends in the area.

 

[metroplex]

I bought my first Ducati from PI in 2001 and though the staff has changed, the owner (since they opened) has maintained the original DNA of the shop, and it still ranks up there as one of my favorites. I've known the owner of AMS for a long time (an awesome and very knowledgeable ex-Kiwi racer if you haven't met him yet). Love his shop, but I agree that there was a little something special about the way that PI did things. I heard of TT, but unfortunately never had a chance to visit. I hope to visit Ducati Detroit the next time I'm out visiting one of my friends in the area.

Yes definitely! It's off a really good part of Woodward Ave. Contrary to its name, it's a solid 6 or so miles from the border of Detroit and even further from Downtown Detroit. I think the Detroit Ducati shop used to be part of a European auto dealer/shop (Lotus, etc). Or it might still be part of it. If you go during Woodward Dream cruise (mid-August), expect almost a million people in the area but there's a lot of gearheads all over the place during that time.

 

[LeFraussie]

Thank you. Interesting story on the airbox lid. So there was a lot of debate about this as well. Some, like me, did not get a new airbox lid from the Ducati Performance/Race kit. Others said they got one. I asked a few dealers at the time, including my local one (which went out of business) and they were clueless about it. I contacted Pro Italia (when their parts department was still based in California before being sold off) and they knew exactly what I was talking about and ordered a new one for me. It basically has 3 holes cut out from the top to allow more air to go in. The dealer installed the DP filter but never included this airbox lid, so i presume the DP kit never included the lid. I know some got the lid, others did not as well.

The kit definitely comes with its own airbox lid as you can see from the DP parts catalogue.

It is likely that by mistake some kits were sent without it.

Having said that, you could take a stock one and dremel the 3 holes.

The DP ECU is an improvement but still uses the O2 sensors so will run lean below ~4000rpm (pop on decel).

 

[metroplex]

Yes the catalog shows that airbox lid, but some reported not getting one like me. The dealer swapped out the filters but never included that lid.

BTW I ordered a new replacement paper filter and its also made by Sogefi and the seal is very soft/supple. Looks like a clean design.

I thought I recall reading/seeing something that said the ECU uses Alpha-N/open loop when it is cold, and switches to the O2 feedback once the oil reaches a certain temperature. At WOT/higher RPMs, its Alpha-N again so the ECU mapping kicks in again. This is like really really old school fuel injection. Modern EcoBoost/GTDI engines are generally closed loop all the time with wideband O2 sensors so they can reach the entire stoichmetric AFR range whether you're running full E85 (9.85:1) or straight gas (14.64:1) and is closed loop even at WOT, plus they're speed density so no MAF sensors. Just a quadratic VE equation.