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As a new member, I too am quite surprised at a discussion like this on a forum devoted to folks generally thought to value individual expression and responsibility.
May I nominate PhilB for president? His point of view seems to coincide with that of many of our founding fathers.


"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add "within the limits of the law" because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual." - Thomas Jefferson

That said, this was about the AMA, not safety gear, if you value your rights to ride at all, you should consider supporting the AMA even if you don't agree with their position on helmet regulations.
Thanks, and +1.

PhilB
 

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"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add "within the limits of the law" because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual." - Thomas Jefferson
Awesome quote :)
 

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Again, you do realize that EXACT line of logic can be used to eliminate motorcycling itself, not to mention any other hobby or activity that carries any extra risk.

And again, it's not the individual that is causing you the cost; it's the government program that forces you to pay for it.

PhilB
My problem is the system right now only certain people pay into it and not others. The system I'm referring too of course is the healthcare system. Once 2014 comes around and everyone is paying into it to some degree that's fine.

I understand your logic but you're turning the "slippery slope" into an Olympic Style winter jump.

If something horrible happens to me on my motorcycle I have health insurance. Just like in NJ you can't drive or operate a motor vehicle without insurance I think people shouldn't be able to do dangerous things without health insurance. If they choose to do dangerous things without health insurance I don't want to pay for their recovery. They are the ones not looking out for their fellow man.

Also I don't want to debate why the current economic/healthcare system is blah blah blah. I would like to change and/or fix EVERYTHING but I'm a firm believer in that change happens a little bit at a time.

As it stands the way I feel we should fix things seems to be the simplest to implement.
 

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If something horrible happens to me on my motorcycle I have health insurance. Just like in NJ you can't drive or operate a motor vehicle without insurance I think people shouldn't be able to do dangerous things without health insurance. If they choose to do dangerous things without health insurance I don't want to pay for their recovery.
This is WAY off-topic, but I think this way of thinking is wrong. Ideally you should be able to walk into (or in much more unfortunate circumstances, be carried into) a hospital and never even once think about insurance or money. Hospital service should be something that is freely available to everyone at all times. How many ridiculous stories have we heard already about coverage being denied to people who pay for insurance because they didn't "schedule ahead of time" their trip to the ER in an ambulance? Yeah!

There are people that will abuse a system with "free" healthcare and the system will have to deal with it, but alot of people do not have health insurance and would much rather have it, and just as many have it but did not receive coverage when they needed it the most. We need to realize a world where all humans stand equal and are able to receive help when they need it- and as of now they don't.

Sure, I'm speaking ideals, but an ideal is what we need to aim for or we'll never come close. I've heard every excuse in the book why this hasn't happened yet, from "not enough hospitals" to staff not receiving enough compensation. In reality, this is something that is very doable for us if we put our minds to it. It isn't a sacrifice of one person's money for another either. It is a no-sacrifices approach for everyone. We shouldn't accept anything less.
 

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This is WAY off-topic, but I think this way of thinking is wrong. Ideally you should be able to walk into (or in much more unfortunate circumstances, be carried into) a hospital and never even once think about insurance or money. Hospital service should be something that is freely available to everyone at all times. How many ridiculous stories have we heard already about coverage being denied to people who pay for insurance because they didn't "schedule ahead of time" their trip to the ER in an ambulance? Yeah!

There are people that will abuse a system with "free" healthcare and the system will have to deal with it, but alot of people do not have health insurance and would much rather have it, and just as many have it but did not receive coverage when they needed it the most. We need to realize a world where all humans stand equal and are able to receive help when they need it- and as of now they don't.

Sure, I'm speaking ideals, but an ideal is what we need to aim for or we'll never come close. I've heard every excuse in the book why this hasn't happened yet, from "not enough hospitals" to staff not receiving enough compensation. In reality, this is something that is very doable for us if we put our minds to it. It isn't a sacrifice of one person's money for another either. It is a no-sacrifices approach for everyone. We shouldn't accept anything less.
I'm confused because it sounds like you are agreeing with me? I support the Healthcare Reform and I believe everyone should have access to Health Care. But it can't be free everyone has to pay into a system. I mean if you weren't paying for some sort of Health Insurance the government would just tax you more like in other countries that have single payer systems.
 

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My problem is the system right now only certain people pay into it and not others. The system I'm referring too of course is the healthcare system. Once 2014 comes around and everyone is paying into it to some degree that's fine.

I understand your logic but you're turning the "slippery slope" into an Olympic Style winter jump.

If something horrible happens to me on my motorcycle I have health insurance. Just like in NJ you can't drive or operate a motor vehicle without insurance I think people shouldn't be able to do dangerous things without health insurance. If they choose to do dangerous things without health insurance I don't want to pay for their recovery. They are the ones not looking out for their fellow man.

Also I don't want to debate why the current economic/healthcare system is blah blah blah. I would like to change and/or fix EVERYTHING but I'm a firm believer in that change happens a little bit at a time.

As it stands the way I feel we should fix things seems to be the simplest to implement.
Our system has very real problems. These problems can be fixed. The current approach is the wrong direction, and will only make things worse. I agree we can't fixe everything at once, and that one step at a time is more realistic. BUT, each step needs to be in the right direction.

This is WAY off-topic, but I think this way of thinking is wrong. Ideally you should be able to walk into (or in much more unfortunate circumstances, be carried into) a hospital and never even once think about insurance or money. Hospital service should be something that is freely available to everyone at all times. How many ridiculous stories have we heard already about coverage being denied to people who pay for insurance because they didn't "schedule ahead of time" their trip to the ER in an ambulance? Yeah!

There are people that will abuse a system with "free" healthcare and the system will have to deal with it, but alot of people do not have health insurance and would much rather have it, and just as many have it but did not receive coverage when they needed it the most. We need to realize a world where all humans stand equal and are able to receive help when they need it- and as of now they don't.

Sure, I'm speaking ideals, but an ideal is what we need to aim for or we'll never come close. I've heard every excuse in the book why this hasn't happened yet, from "not enough hospitals" to staff not receiving enough compensation. In reality, this is something that is very doable for us if we put our minds to it. It isn't a sacrifice of one person's money for another either. It is a no-sacrifices approach for everyone. We shouldn't accept anything less.
It is reality that medical care is expensive. It involves highly skilled people and expensive equipment and buildings and medicines. This is inherent in the technology. Therefore, it is not POSSIBLE for medical care to be "something that is freely available to everyone at all times". To attempt this is to deny reality, and reality always wins in the end. Usually through systemic collapse of an economically unsustainable system. (Which is something this country is already headed for, if we cannot drastically cut the size and spending of our entire government. Again, this type of healthcare reform is in the wrong direction, and just increases the size of our problems.)

PhilB
 

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+1 Philb
the high cost of supporting our current level of government backed health care (medicare and medicaid) is a significant portion of the entitlement spending that is slowly (or not so slowly) drowning us in debt. For those of you who haven't seen it take a look at the national debt clock. Back on the OT, the AMA does support individual freedoms for riders, and entertaining racing.
 

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+1 Philb
the high cost of supporting our current level of government backed health care (medicare and medicaid) is a significant portion of the entitlement spending that is slowly (or not so slowly) drowning us in debt. For those of you who haven't seen it take a look at the national debt clock. Back on the OT, the AMA does support individual freedoms for riders, and entertaining racing.
The AMA sold the racing division a few years back, so now they are mainly a rights and service organization.

PhilB
 

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Although I highly discourage the lack of safety gear...

I still believe it is a personal choice. If you want to ride crazy, or even moderately without safety gear, it should be your choice. Thinning the herd and all, remember your opponent will likely be a minivan who doesn't see you and has full ABS, seat-belt, and air-bag protection. You only have the protection of your riding gear and how/where you land after a spill.

Quote from the AMA website:

"The AMA believes riders should wear all the safety gear all the time. But the AMA also believes riders -- rather than government -- should make the decision."

Never understood why people are so quick to judge and form/offer opinions while unaware of all the facts...

I do think that for a "free" country, there are way too many unnecessary restrictions aimed at select groups of taxpayers (i.e. Motorcyclists).

I support the AMA... my choice.
 

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The AMA protecting our rights....... this only happens in high profile cases. Two friends of mine (both lifetime members of AMA) were killed by an auto driver who had just finished his bottle of pain pills. His speed was estimated at 90+ MPH when he hit two of my friends head on and sideswiped another (also a long time AMA member). The motorcycles were traveling at 60-65 MPH on a straight road in nice weather during the middle of the day, the auto driver crossed the center line and ran over the motorcyclists. Two friends dead and he walked (stumbled) away. One friend was a retired boilermaker and math teacher, the other a retired civil engineer. Both were well liked by everyone and one had a six year old son. The driver was a repeat DUI and drug offender. I contacted an attorney (also a lifetime member) to get in touch with the AMA to make sure this man was sent to prison for a long time. He contacted them several times....... his calls were never returned. I tried to contact the AMA personally. One of my calls was returned...... but I was not available so the call was missed. I called back and..... surprise, got to talk to a machine, left another message, which was never answered. The auto driver ended up getting only eight years and is probably out on parole by now, meaning he only served three years. Three years for murdering two good, honest men with families and young children. Where was the AMA ? I guess they were in Ohio and not here in Kentucky. In my opinion, the AMA, like many other organizations talks a good game and even plays a good game...... if....... it is a high enough profile case to get the club free publicity. What does the AMA do? Racing...... no. Standing up for individuals..... not in my experience. They are just another self serving organization that likes to take dues and pay their bills and large salaries. AMA membership....... yes, I was a member for 24 years. For me, it was not money well spent.
 

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The AMA protecting our rights....... this only happens in high profile cases. Two friends of mine (both lifetime members of AMA) were killed by an auto driver who had just finished his bottle of pain pills. His speed was estimated at 90+ MPH when he hit two of my friends head on and sideswiped another (also a long time AMA member). The motorcycles were traveling at 60-65 MPH on a straight road in nice weather during the middle of the day, the auto driver crossed the center line and ran over the motorcyclists. Two friends dead and he walked (stumbled) away. One friend was a retired boilermaker and math teacher, the other a retired civil engineer. Both were well liked by everyone and one had a six year old son. The driver was a repeat DUI and drug offender. I contacted an attorney (also a lifetime member) to get in touch with the AMA to make sure this man was sent to prison for a long time. He contacted them several times....... his calls were never returned. I tried to contact the AMA personally. One of my calls was returned...... but I was not available so the call was missed. I called back and..... surprise, got to talk to a machine, left another message, which was never answered. The auto driver ended up getting only eight years and is probably out on parole by now, meaning he only served three years. Three years for murdering two good, honest men with families and young children. Where was the AMA ? I guess they were in Ohio and not here in Kentucky. In my opinion, the AMA, like many other organizations talks a good game and even plays a good game...... if....... it is a high enough profile case to get the club free publicity. What does the AMA do? Racing...... no. Standing up for individuals..... not in my experience. They are just another self serving organization that likes to take dues and pay their bills and large salaries. AMA membership....... yes, I was a member for 24 years. For me, it was not money well spent.
I appreciate that this was a personal event for you, but what was the AMA supposed to be able to do there? In an individual trial, they have no influence over the outcome, and they can't be chasing every crash where a car hits a bike. They work to influence the laws that get passed, in favor of the rights of motorcyclists. They indeed do work for laws that increase the penalties for such cases as the one you cite, but if such laws are not in effect in any given location, they have no power to get a court to increase the penalty for a specific case.

PhilB
 

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Well Phil..... the AMA certainly made a big deal about bringing the senator to trial a few years ago who killed a motorcyclist while under the influence..... Say what you will, I still feel that the AMA is just another self promoting organization that basically does nothing. And...... isn't it true that the AMA sells off many of the machines donated to them by members who think they will be kept and displayed for the enjoyment and appreciation of all members. The AMA has lost it's way...... that is all I have to say.
 

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Well Phil..... the AMA certainly made a big deal about bringing the senator to trial a few years ago who killed a motorcyclist while under the influence..... Say what you will, I still feel that the AMA is just another self promoting organization that basically does nothing. ...
That was a good opportunity to spark public outrage and get some tougher laws passed, which was (as I noted above) where they try to focus, with good reason. They currently are very active in working to block E15 fuel, which will not be good for our bikes (especially the older ones). They do good work, and I challenge you to name any organization that does us more good than they do.

... And...... isn't it true that the AMA sells off many of the machines donated to them by members who think they will be kept and displayed for the enjoyment and appreciation of all members. The AMA has lost it's way...... that is all I have to say.
All museums do that. They all get more vehicles donated than money, and have to sell some in order to be able to fix up and display the others. I've bought some good projects from museum auctions that way.

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Well, good to see you agree with me....... they only get involved in high profile cases and they do sell the motorcycles donated to them. Not only that..... you have bought some of them. Phil...... do you work for the club? And.......I think ABATE members would argue with you about the AMA being more helpful in passing legislation than any other organization. Not that I don't wear a helmet or safety gear or even belong to ABATE. I really do not want to get in a further pissing match about this. Everything I said was true...... you even say it is so. Your belief is that the AMA should operate for the greater good, I believe that any organization should put the individual members first and cater to the membership rather than always try to influence politicians who change direction like the wind. You are entitled to your opinion......... and I am entitled to mine. Thank you for the lively discussion.
 

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Oh man you've said your point, we get it. Why not stop with the hate and go back to making positive posts. Your beef with the AMA is that your friends got killed and they did not bother to get involved. If you really want to argue, how did experienced motorcyclists get killed by oncoming traffic? Why did they not take evasive action?

Why do you feel that your friends issue should be their only issue? I just lost a friend that went through some horrible business having his liver fail and taking out the rest of his organs. He kept being told by the VA that he would get a new liver, he didn't. Should I go around telling everyone that the entire VA is horrible? Should I talk smack about the Doctors at the local Hospital that were seeing him? Should I stand on my soap box screaming that medical science is a failure to everyone, everywhere? Honestly if you weren't so full of rage, you would see your reply and think, man this guy sure bitches a lot about things well beyond his control. Does the NRA show up at every single gun related court case? No. Man they would be busy. Did the guy that killed your friends go through the local system? Yes. Did he get a sentence that falls in line with the local standards? Yes he did. Did he qualify for parole after a few years with a decade of supervised probation? Probably. Would others in the same situation get a similar sentence? Probably. Why would the deaths of your friends qualify for a longer sentence and how would the AMA have made that happen. Please quantify your answer with actual laws and sentencing guidelines and state how and why only the AMA could make that happen and why the lawyers that represented your families absolutely could not make that happen at your local level while knowing the local governing laws, sentencing guidelines, judges, prosecutors, and other defenders in the area. If your families choose totally inept people to represent them, then they only have themselves to blame for the outcome.

Call it personal responsibility if you will. Hating the AMA and going on and on in some political debate with Phil isn't going to bring them back, nor will it get the AMA involved in every single local case, nor will it get ABATE to do that either. Knowing what these organizations do on the big picture to help riders is the important part. You still debate the fact that they sell donated bikes to fund their operations and still get pissed when the reasons are fully explained and actually make sense. To that all I can say is, get your head out of your ass. Every year I sponsor a local rally to the tune of $3,000 (feel free to fact check www.harvestclassic.org 10 years now). I've donated $30,000 to the CTMC and then it all goes to Any Baby Can/Candle Lighters association. If there is any one thing I've learned from donating it's this, I donated it. I gave the money or motorcycle to them, it's theirs to do with whatever they feel will do the most good towards the end result or goal. Does the AMA really need 1,500 1972 Honda Cb350's on display somewhere?

The AMA provides the rally with a means to insure what happens in the fence line is insured for liability reasons. Without them the rally could not afford to have the events that they do or at the least instead of being able to donate 95% of all money collected, they would need to spend 55% of the money on insurance to private firms. In that way they are providing for us on the National level and the Local level as that allows an additional 50% of ticket sales to stay in the community helping young children with their battles with cancer.

Consider that for a minute.


But you won't. From your past responses you'll find a way to twist it all around and make an attempt to slam it back at me as though the AMA gives those kids cancer. You won't sway my opinion as I'm not an AMA supporter myself, I just know they do provide for all of us to some degree and I also understand a word called limitations. So go ahead and spin it for your needs and lets hear it.
 

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Well, good to see you agree with me....... they only get involved in high profile cases and they do sell the motorcycles donated to them. Not only that..... you have bought some of them. Phil...... do you work for the club? And.......I think ABATE members would argue with you about the AMA being more helpful in passing legislation than any other organization. Not that I don't wear a helmet or safety gear or even belong to ABATE. I really do not want to get in a further pissing match about this. Everything I said was true...... you even say it is so. Your belief is that the AMA should operate for the greater good, I believe that any organization should put the individual members first and cater to the membership rather than always try to influence politicians who change direction like the wind. You are entitled to your opinion......... and I am entitled to mine. Thank you for the lively discussion.
:rolleyes They have limited funds, just like any organization, so of course they focus on what will give the best results for the money. They'd be idiots not to. And again, it's about changing the laws for the better, which helps everyone; getting involved in single cases does not do that.

The selling of the bikes, as I explained, is normal practice for any museum, and is a completely insignificant issue.

ABATE has their niche as well, although they have been much more of a one-issue organization, and also much more linked to one type of bike and biker, while the AMA is more broad-based, both on issues and on segments of motorcycling.

You may, of course, remain bitter and disenchanted. But to try to tear down the good that they do because they didn't jump in for your personal issue is wrong and childish.

PhilB
 

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Hey Phil....... maybe you should hit Mike up for some membership money. He hasn't signed up yet.
I'm not affiliated with the AMA. I'm not even always a paid member. I do always stay on their e-mail list for legislative alerts, and help with those efforts to fight for our rights as motorcyclists.

Whine and snipe as you wish, but there's no better organization for us out there. Maybe you should start one.

PhilB
 

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The AMA isn't perfect, that's for sure, and I don't agree with some of their ideas. But they are like the NRA. If you own a gun and believe in the 2nd amendment meaning that individuals have the right to arm themselves, then they are the biggest and most powerful. Abate has it's place, and so does the MRF, which I am also a member of. We motorcyclists are very indivdualistic, and as such don't like to get "organized" but the government is after us. We need to stick together, no matter what. Mike
 
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