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post #21 of 42 (permalink) Old 08-25-2011, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seabrooks View Post
As a new member, I too am quite surprised at a discussion like this on a forum devoted to folks generally thought to value individual expression and responsibility.
May I nominate PhilB for president? His point of view seems to coincide with that of many of our founding fathers.


"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add "within the limits of the law" because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual." - Thomas Jefferson

That said, this was about the AMA, not safety gear, if you value your rights to ride at all, you should consider supporting the AMA even if you don't agree with their position on helmet regulations.
Thanks, and +1.

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1993 Ducati M900 Monster "Patina" (265,000 miles, killed by minivan 30Oct17) -- 1995 Ducati M900 (wife's bike) -- 1979 Vespa P200 (daughter's scoot) -- 1964 Vespa GS160 (160cc 2-stroke) -- 1962 Maicoletta scooter (275cc 2-stroke) -- 1960 Heinkel Tourist 103A1 scooter "Elroy" (175cc 4-stroke)
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post #22 of 42 (permalink) Old 08-29-2011, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seabrooks View Post
"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add "within the limits of the law" because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual." - Thomas Jefferson
Awesome quote

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post #23 of 42 (permalink) Old 08-29-2011, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by philb View Post

Again, you do realize that EXACT line of logic can be used to eliminate motorcycling itself, not to mention any other hobby or activity that carries any extra risk.

And again, it's not the individual that is causing you the cost; it's the government program that forces you to pay for it.

PhilB
My problem is the system right now only certain people pay into it and not others. The system I'm referring too of course is the healthcare system. Once 2014 comes around and everyone is paying into it to some degree that's fine.

I understand your logic but you're turning the "slippery slope" into an Olympic Style winter jump.

If something horrible happens to me on my motorcycle I have health insurance. Just like in NJ you can't drive or operate a motor vehicle without insurance I think people shouldn't be able to do dangerous things without health insurance. If they choose to do dangerous things without health insurance I don't want to pay for their recovery. They are the ones not looking out for their fellow man.

Also I don't want to debate why the current economic/healthcare system is blah blah blah. I would like to change and/or fix EVERYTHING but I'm a firm believer in that change happens a little bit at a time.

As it stands the way I feel we should fix things seems to be the simplest to implement.

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Last edited by Brackstone; 08-29-2011 at 09:54 AM.
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post #24 of 42 (permalink) Old 08-29-2011, 11:23 AM
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If something horrible happens to me on my motorcycle I have health insurance. Just like in NJ you can't drive or operate a motor vehicle without insurance I think people shouldn't be able to do dangerous things without health insurance. If they choose to do dangerous things without health insurance I don't want to pay for their recovery.
This is WAY off-topic, but I think this way of thinking is wrong. Ideally you should be able to walk into (or in much more unfortunate circumstances, be carried into) a hospital and never even once think about insurance or money. Hospital service should be something that is freely available to everyone at all times. How many ridiculous stories have we heard already about coverage being denied to people who pay for insurance because they didn't "schedule ahead of time" their trip to the ER in an ambulance? Yeah!

There are people that will abuse a system with "free" healthcare and the system will have to deal with it, but alot of people do not have health insurance and would much rather have it, and just as many have it but did not receive coverage when they needed it the most. We need to realize a world where all humans stand equal and are able to receive help when they need it- and as of now they don't.

Sure, I'm speaking ideals, but an ideal is what we need to aim for or we'll never come close. I've heard every excuse in the book why this hasn't happened yet, from "not enough hospitals" to staff not receiving enough compensation. In reality, this is something that is very doable for us if we put our minds to it. It isn't a sacrifice of one person's money for another either. It is a no-sacrifices approach for everyone. We shouldn't accept anything less.
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post #25 of 42 (permalink) Old 08-29-2011, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by kazetsukai View Post
This is WAY off-topic, but I think this way of thinking is wrong. Ideally you should be able to walk into (or in much more unfortunate circumstances, be carried into) a hospital and never even once think about insurance or money. Hospital service should be something that is freely available to everyone at all times. How many ridiculous stories have we heard already about coverage being denied to people who pay for insurance because they didn't "schedule ahead of time" their trip to the ER in an ambulance? Yeah!

There are people that will abuse a system with "free" healthcare and the system will have to deal with it, but alot of people do not have health insurance and would much rather have it, and just as many have it but did not receive coverage when they needed it the most. We need to realize a world where all humans stand equal and are able to receive help when they need it- and as of now they don't.

Sure, I'm speaking ideals, but an ideal is what we need to aim for or we'll never come close. I've heard every excuse in the book why this hasn't happened yet, from "not enough hospitals" to staff not receiving enough compensation. In reality, this is something that is very doable for us if we put our minds to it. It isn't a sacrifice of one person's money for another either. It is a no-sacrifices approach for everyone. We shouldn't accept anything less.
I'm confused because it sounds like you are agreeing with me? I support the Healthcare Reform and I believe everyone should have access to Health Care. But it can't be free everyone has to pay into a system. I mean if you weren't paying for some sort of Health Insurance the government would just tax you more like in other countries that have single payer systems.

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post #26 of 42 (permalink) Old 08-29-2011, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brackstone View Post
My problem is the system right now only certain people pay into it and not others. The system I'm referring too of course is the healthcare system. Once 2014 comes around and everyone is paying into it to some degree that's fine.

I understand your logic but you're turning the "slippery slope" into an Olympic Style winter jump.

If something horrible happens to me on my motorcycle I have health insurance. Just like in NJ you can't drive or operate a motor vehicle without insurance I think people shouldn't be able to do dangerous things without health insurance. If they choose to do dangerous things without health insurance I don't want to pay for their recovery. They are the ones not looking out for their fellow man.

Also I don't want to debate why the current economic/healthcare system is blah blah blah. I would like to change and/or fix EVERYTHING but I'm a firm believer in that change happens a little bit at a time.

As it stands the way I feel we should fix things seems to be the simplest to implement.
Our system has very real problems. These problems can be fixed. The current approach is the wrong direction, and will only make things worse. I agree we can't fixe everything at once, and that one step at a time is more realistic. BUT, each step needs to be in the right direction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kazetsukai View Post
This is WAY off-topic, but I think this way of thinking is wrong. Ideally you should be able to walk into (or in much more unfortunate circumstances, be carried into) a hospital and never even once think about insurance or money. Hospital service should be something that is freely available to everyone at all times. How many ridiculous stories have we heard already about coverage being denied to people who pay for insurance because they didn't "schedule ahead of time" their trip to the ER in an ambulance? Yeah!

There are people that will abuse a system with "free" healthcare and the system will have to deal with it, but alot of people do not have health insurance and would much rather have it, and just as many have it but did not receive coverage when they needed it the most. We need to realize a world where all humans stand equal and are able to receive help when they need it- and as of now they don't.

Sure, I'm speaking ideals, but an ideal is what we need to aim for or we'll never come close. I've heard every excuse in the book why this hasn't happened yet, from "not enough hospitals" to staff not receiving enough compensation. In reality, this is something that is very doable for us if we put our minds to it. It isn't a sacrifice of one person's money for another either. It is a no-sacrifices approach for everyone. We shouldn't accept anything less.
It is reality that medical care is expensive. It involves highly skilled people and expensive equipment and buildings and medicines. This is inherent in the technology. Therefore, it is not POSSIBLE for medical care to be "something that is freely available to everyone at all times". To attempt this is to deny reality, and reality always wins in the end. Usually through systemic collapse of an economically unsustainable system. (Which is something this country is already headed for, if we cannot drastically cut the size and spending of our entire government. Again, this type of healthcare reform is in the wrong direction, and just increases the size of our problems.)

PhilB

1993 Ducati M900 Monster "Patina" (265,000 miles, killed by minivan 30Oct17) -- 1995 Ducati M900 (wife's bike) -- 1979 Vespa P200 (daughter's scoot) -- 1964 Vespa GS160 (160cc 2-stroke) -- 1962 Maicoletta scooter (275cc 2-stroke) -- 1960 Heinkel Tourist 103A1 scooter "Elroy" (175cc 4-stroke)

Last edited by philb; 08-29-2011 at 01:16 PM.
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post #27 of 42 (permalink) Old 09-01-2011, 12:50 AM
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+1 Philb
the high cost of supporting our current level of government backed health care (medicare and medicaid) is a significant portion of the entitlement spending that is slowly (or not so slowly) drowning us in debt. For those of you who haven't seen it take a look at the national debt clock. Back on the OT, the AMA does support individual freedoms for riders, and entertaining racing.
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post #28 of 42 (permalink) Old 09-01-2011, 03:41 AM
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+1 Philb
the high cost of supporting our current level of government backed health care (medicare and medicaid) is a significant portion of the entitlement spending that is slowly (or not so slowly) drowning us in debt. For those of you who haven't seen it take a look at the national debt clock. Back on the OT, the AMA does support individual freedoms for riders, and entertaining racing.
The AMA sold the racing division a few years back, so now they are mainly a rights and service organization.

PhilB

1993 Ducati M900 Monster "Patina" (265,000 miles, killed by minivan 30Oct17) -- 1995 Ducati M900 (wife's bike) -- 1979 Vespa P200 (daughter's scoot) -- 1964 Vespa GS160 (160cc 2-stroke) -- 1962 Maicoletta scooter (275cc 2-stroke) -- 1960 Heinkel Tourist 103A1 scooter "Elroy" (175cc 4-stroke)
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post #29 of 42 (permalink) Old 01-03-2012, 09:09 PM
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Although I highly discourage the lack of safety gear...

I still believe it is a personal choice. If you want to ride crazy, or even moderately without safety gear, it should be your choice. Thinning the herd and all, remember your opponent will likely be a minivan who doesn't see you and has full ABS, seat-belt, and air-bag protection. You only have the protection of your riding gear and how/where you land after a spill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mig View Post
Quote from the AMA website:

"The AMA believes riders should wear all the safety gear all the time. But the AMA also believes riders -- rather than government -- should make the decision."

Never understood why people are so quick to judge and form/offer opinions while unaware of all the facts...

I do think that for a "free" country, there are way too many unnecessary restrictions aimed at select groups of taxpayers (i.e. Motorcyclists).

I support the AMA... my choice.
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post #30 of 42 (permalink) Old 09-16-2013, 09:18 PM
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The AMA protecting our rights....... this only happens in high profile cases. Two friends of mine (both lifetime members of AMA) were killed by an auto driver who had just finished his bottle of pain pills. His speed was estimated at 90+ MPH when he hit two of my friends head on and sideswiped another (also a long time AMA member). The motorcycles were traveling at 60-65 MPH on a straight road in nice weather during the middle of the day, the auto driver crossed the center line and ran over the motorcyclists. Two friends dead and he walked (stumbled) away. One friend was a retired boilermaker and math teacher, the other a retired civil engineer. Both were well liked by everyone and one had a six year old son. The driver was a repeat DUI and drug offender. I contacted an attorney (also a lifetime member) to get in touch with the AMA to make sure this man was sent to prison for a long time. He contacted them several times....... his calls were never returned. I tried to contact the AMA personally. One of my calls was returned...... but I was not available so the call was missed. I called back and..... surprise, got to talk to a machine, left another message, which was never answered. The auto driver ended up getting only eight years and is probably out on parole by now, meaning he only served three years. Three years for murdering two good, honest men with families and young children. Where was the AMA ? I guess they were in Ohio and not here in Kentucky. In my opinion, the AMA, like many other organizations talks a good game and even plays a good game...... if....... it is a high enough profile case to get the club free publicity. What does the AMA do? Racing...... no. Standing up for individuals..... not in my experience. They are just another self serving organization that likes to take dues and pay their bills and large salaries. AMA membership....... yes, I was a member for 24 years. For me, it was not money well spent.
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