Questions about going into a turn too fast.

[jcmjoe]

I really hope that this doesnt sound like a dumb question ,but I figured there would be some experienced racers on here that could give me some tips. I have an 07 S2R 1K. I love the bike and I am very comfortable riding it hard into turns. If you find you are going into a turn too fast should you use the front brakes or back to safely slow you down without throwing the bike out of wack while leaned over in the turn? I had a spill in my earlier riding days and took a break from fast turns until I got my monster. I try to be cautious on unfamiliar roads, but sometimes you go into a turn and it ends up being alot sharper than it looks. I just dont want to make the same mistake again.Thanks for any advice guys. Joe

[Johnster]

Well, I'm not an "experienced racer" by any means, but I have been practicing (and reading) about cornering techniques, throttle control, and entry/exit habits pretty extensively, and there are a couple rules to ALWAYS follow......

-First off, you should basically always enter the turn slow enough so that you can comfortably roll the throttle on through the turn and not risk running wide....If you feel like you have to brake or roll off the throttle in the middle of the turn, your entry speed was too fast. NEVER EVER touch your front brake while leaned over at speed.....This is asking to lowside.....Trail braking (using the back brake lightly while still on the throttle) is OK in some situations, but more to settle the suspension than to actually reduce speed...

-Throttle control is everything.....Lee Parks talks about John Kocinski (former Cagiva MotoGP rider extrordanaire) in his book "Total Control"....(which I highly recommend BTW)
Basically while all the other riders in MotoGP at the time were fiddling around with suspension settings to get their bikes to corner better, Kocinski was able to leave them all in the dust with almost STOCK SETTINGS, just due to the fact that he was SO SMOOTH on and off the throttle.....His suspension never got upset......

-Try doing an experiment (I did this)....Find a nice turn w/not too much traffic, and take it three times at speed.......Once while progressively rolling on the throttle thru the turn, once with the throttle barely cracked, and once while coasting......Which one felt the most stable to you??? What does that tell you about throttle application in a turn???

-Keith Code teaches the "When in doubt, More Gas" school of thought......He basically says that if your bike feels like it's on the verge of losing traction in a turn, that it's better to ADD gas than take it away......That sort of ties in to that experiment I did.....


-I've been REALLY reading up on traction and cornering lately (if ya can't tell ) and it's fun to practice and get good at it, so I figured I'd just throw my .02 in.....That's the stuff I've been focusing on lately when I go out riding.....It sounds like you crashed by BRAKING in the turn rather than ACCELERATING through it, which is ALWAYS better traction-wise....

-Good luck!!! 8)

John

[d8ve]

I'm not an experienced racer but i use my rear brake to tighten my line while cornering but your first option should be to lean the bike further.

[jcmjoe]

Thanks guys, BTW, I should have worded "experienced racer" a little different. Anybody that is experienced with fast cornering techniques or has been in a situation like this is what I meant. Thanks for all of your advice.

[jcmjoe]

Oh, Johnstar, You were right, I was braking in the turn when I wrecked, and the bike did wash out from underneath me. I am going to hit up some track days at my local track (Summit Point, WV) Hopefully I can get some good experience there, and I am definately going to try your test with the 3 different entry/exit methods you suugested. Thanks again. Joe

[dan900sie]

Any abrupt input in a corner can be disastrous, be it brake, steering input or throttle. Anyone that says you can always throttle out of a dicey situation knows no more about bike control than someone who says you should always brake. If you think you're too hot into a corner there's a very good chance you really aren't near the limits of traction so smooth steering input will work most times. You can use your front brake very deep into a corner if it's done gradually, but if you try to lose any significant amount of speed with your rear your gonna go down. In the corner the bike will always be more stable with pressure on the suspension either from brake or throttle. Ideally, you ease off the front brake to the apex of the corner and ease on the throttle as you exit.

[chaos321]

Okay, 1st: The chances of "most" of us being too hot into a turn is slim to none. Most of us will never reach that level of skill to out ride our bikes capabilities. One of the things I learned early on when working with "real" racers is they all had the same theory about the turn in. Way too many people "think" they get in too hot and either stand it up and run into the gravel or are too hard on the brakes and lay it down. The advice that is always given is "trust your bike", when you get in too hot don't panic, hold your line or tighten it a bit and ride through the turn. I promise you will be amazed that you were able to hold that much corner speed. I had a tire test at Spring Mountain Motorsports Park in Pahrump Nevada and came down the front straight and carried way too much speed into turn one. I started to drift to the outside edge of the track into the pebbles and instantly thought about what they were all telling me. I tightened my line and held my ground and the bike took me where I needed to go. Lesson learned. After that my corner speed improved and lap times dropped alot!

2nd. Trail braking is when both the front and rear are applied "lightly" all the way to the apex. You can use one or the other but the term applies to both brakes late into the turn. Not just the rear. Just a reminder, remember that if you apply the brakes while leaned over, it will try to stand the bike up and force to to apply more pressure to the bars to hold your line. The key to all this is exactly what the other posters said.. you have to be smooth about everything!

[Johnster]

Originally Posted by chaos321

Okay, 1st: The chances of "most" of us being too hot into a turn is slim to none. Most of us will never reach that level of skill to out ride our bikes capabilities.

You're totally right, and I should have clarified.....

-If you had to consider rolling off the gas or possibly braking mid-turn regardless whether you're going 20 or 80mph, you probably entered it too fast for you PERSONALLY to be comfortable with throttling through the turn......

-The variable that exists in this discussion is the bike capabilities -vs.- rider's confidence/fear threshold....We often times inhibit the completion of a given task just by our own insecurities, fears, or second-guessing ourselves...

-Most of our bikes are definitely able to corner much much faster than we make them, but to approach that speed, we have to do so with confidence in ourselves and faith in the motorcycle's design to hold traction at that speed....

[repsol]

do not touch your rear brake, if you are leaned way over already, you are going for a slide, if you touch that rear brake! Fronts you can control much better even at full lean, but everything is smooth and very very easy!
But if you are not riding right out to the edge of your tires normally, trust them and lean in more and just ride through the turn tighening up the line. They can hold way past where you think they can.
I run Power race tires Med coumpounds on my street bike and track bikes. They really stick right off the edge . good investment/insurance.

[Johnster]

Originally Posted by repsol

I run Power race tires Med coumpounds on my street bike and track bikes. They really stick right off the edge . good investment/insurance.

+1 on the Pow-Race's.....I run the medium-softs and LOVE them!! [thumbsup] You can see the rear one on my bike pic.....Nice, sticky tires can completely transform a motorcycle....