Battery acid on my engine - (bad, DNA, bad)

[mdozier]

spoke to my brother-in-law whose a mechanical contractor, he's getting me some al backed, fire rated dense insulation to try as a heat shield under the battery.

after sniffing around a good bit under there, it looks like there's no simple relo spot that doesn't have other risks or sizable overhaul?

- so i'm gonna try a shield first and see. thought i might get a thermal sensor to slip in there and just see what temps i'm getting - then could contact the batt manuf and get some feedback.

also thought about a ceramic shield to try as well.

based on what everyone says it seems logical that the issue is probably a combo of radiated as well as convection heating. shielding will help w/ radiated and air flow or relo will help w/ convection - not sure which is the largest contributor but just looking at everything kinda seems that radiated heat might be the big problem. (just guessing)

so anyway, i'm going to try a shield option or 2 first. will let you know if i learn anything useful.

[infoage1]

So I'm thinking (again);

WTF, let's-just-call-Yuasa and ask them their opinion about sealed batteries and heat, and such. I'm waiting for a call back from their technical support. Any of you engineer types out there feel like preempting my phone call, be my guest.

1-866-431-4784

http://www.yuasabatteries.com/search.asp

Ducati - Monster S4 ?2001-2002 ?916cc
Battery Family: Maintenance Free
Battery Type: YT12B-BS
(hold down must be modified to accept battery)
Voltage: 12
Capacity: 10
Dimensions: 6" x 2 3/4" x 5 1/8"
Weight: 7.6 lbs.
Metric Dimensions: 150mm x 69.0mm x 130.0mm
Metric Weight: 130 kg
Polarity:
Acid Volume: 0.50
Amps: 1.0
C.C.A.: 125

Copyright 2003. All Rights Reserved. Yuasa Battery, Inc.
Reading, PA

1-866-431-4784

[infoage1]

I just talked to Jason at Yuasa. Having not seen the Ducati OEM battery, he was somewhat noncommittal about the cause of failure. He did mention a couple times that laying the battery on its side was probably the biggest problem. Also, that the battery was so compact, for such a capacity (from looking at his battery's specs), led him to believe there probably little room for expansion.

I asked him pointedly about heat being a contributing factor...he repeatedly said he did not think so.

He would not say, to my question, whether he thought the Yuasa would suffer the same fate. And, it did not sound like that Yuasa, in the S4, has been in service for long enough for him to get feedback from the field.

As far as heat being a contributing factor, I wonder just how much heat the valve covers of our water cooled engines throw off? My guess is less than their air cooled brothers...

As far as heat being a contributing factor, I wonder just how much heat the valve covers of our water cooled engines throw off? My guess is less than their air cooled brothers...

well in my case there is enough heat around my 4v rear cylinder head to melt just about anything made of plastic/rubber near it. i really can't speak to anyone else's experience.

but like i was saying earlier... with the four valve head on the s4 you have a relatively large solid surface, very little area around it to aid convection, a battery that exposes it's largest area profile to the heat source, and is mounted directly on top of the valve head best i can recall. the other four valve motorcycles (ST4, 748, 916, 996, and 998 ) have the batteries located upright on the right hand side of the engine further away from head with significantly better air flow to aid in convection as i understand it. with the two valve head you have about a quarter of the surface area to radiate heat, heat dispersing fins, more area around the battery to aid convection... and at least on my 900ss there is a significant separation between the engine and battery with the battery mount attached to the frame instead of the engine and in an upright fashion.

that being pointed out... it's been my experience that the frequency of failure in S4's due to battery leaks are fairly high when compared to the other models, although i don't have factual numbers to confirm my suspicions. now whether it's orientation, heat, type of battery used, or a combination of problems i can't really determine. point is ducati should have determined this issue prior and should rectify the problem with owners rather than ignoring our complaints. instead it's an uphill battle to get dna's attention only made worse by a reluctant dealer network and unconcerned area reps.

i have read on various boards i belong to of two S4 owners with leaks in california, one in texas, three in florida, one in washingtion, one in new england, one in new zealand just off the top of my head... and these don't include the unconfirmed numbers admitted to each of those owners by their dealership/service reps. to me that signals a red flag.
g.

[Speeddog]

Tom,

I think you got as much info out of Jason as he is allowed to say. He said a lot, without being able to see the failed battery.

In my experience of talking with companies on component failures, they will only say so much.

With my technogeek hat on, I think that the convective heating is the largest factor here. That does not mean that some heat shielding won't help.

mdozier, go for it on the shield, and the thermal sensor. Any info on how hot it actually gets under there will help us all in dealing with the battery folks.

I've got some thermal sensors myself, just gotta find the blasted things....

The relocation spot that looks the most promising to me is under the seat, next to the shock. I don't know if there's enough room, especially when the swingarm comes up, but it looks close. Problem is, that's moving a heavy component backwards on the bike, which does not seem to be a good thing on Monsters.
There is room up next to the front cylinder on the left side ( at least for the S4's). Visually it's hideous, but..... it's moving the weight forward, and there's not much damage potential if the battery leaks.

[infoage1]

Well, I got my call back from Jer.

She said she has not heard of the S4 batteries' leaking as a "problem"...Nothing she said suggests Ducati considers it a recall situation. (That said, I mentioned that the amount of feedback generated from this thread told me otherwise and emailed her a link.)

As such, her (DNA's) position is that Ducati will do what "they" think needs to be done to effect the repair; In a fashion "they" think is appropriate.

And that, she said, is that.

At this point, I have little choice but to let them do the repairs as "they" see fit, and go from there. But I remain skeptical the repairs can be completed in a satisfactory manner.

And then there's the little issue of what, exactly, the "problem" is...

Jer said she would investigate this issue further given what I've told her---but I have the uncomfortable feeling they hope this just blows over.

well i hope they do come to a resolution that makes everybody happy. i'd really like to keep my monster but if they choose not to take care of me they may just have to buy the bike back from me. i won't let this drop and i have no intention of going away, i've got a file an inch thick on those jokers. i'm going to give ms stewart a honest chance to pony up some legitimate results but next step for me are letters of complaint to the florida attorney general and the division of consumer services. my patience is done, this has been going on for too long and has garnered a great deal of unnecessary resentment from me towards the parties involved.

[Speeddog]

I called Jer yesterday, didn't get through, of course, but left a message about my concerns on the leaking battery issue.

A guy named Josh called me back today, said he was working with Jer. BTW, his number showed on caller ID as ( 408 ) 253-0499, same as Jer's number.

He said they hadn't heard much about leaking batteries........He called (Honda) Ducati Peninsula, and said they told him they had only seen one leaking battery on an S4 Foggy.

I told him I had heard of several, 2 to be specific, and both guys were pretty hot about the way they were being treated. Seemed like a decent guy, just didn't seem up to speed yet.....

At least there's another warm body at DNA doing Customer "Service".

[Rideon]

If Speedog said he knows about 2 foggy's leaking, then that is close to 1% of the total production. Interesting.

I am in a postion where I talk to a number of Harley riders. I am a chiropractor. Three have roadkings. Three out of three have moderatly severe handling problems at speed, and articles in MCN suggest that the design sucks. Then there are the problems with the destructo-cam. Harley does nothing other than fix what comes in, on an individual basis, and does nothing for a potentially lethal handling problem. And talk about money and profit! They make Ducati's seem like econo-bikes! When have you seen 25K invested in a Monster? Not often! At least with message boards, we know what to expect. Date a beautiful Italian, expect the unexpected!

Then there are those rumors that the motor company is buying Ducati..... after all , their racing VR1000 was a 90 degree twin! I guess I will have to get one of those German Half helmets and fringy handlebars if that happens!
Regards,
Rideon

[mdozier]

i've been in contact w/ Hawker engineering/tech group about the odyssey battery line. these are absorbed glass mat style batteries known as dry cells. these do not have free acid. in fact they will not spill on a straight forward case rupture.

they are made to military specs and will operate from -40C to +80C and are made to w/stand high vibration applications and to be installed at any orientation (on their sides) w/ no compromise in performance. while they list some duc applications they do not directly show a monster app. i didn't have our battery specs w/ me but they said they would be happy to work w/ us (DML) to cross ref or possibly develop! ;D

i haven't had an opportunity to run some operating temp tests but i intend to try that the next day or 2.

sounds promising as a preemptive strike for those of us fortunate enough to not yet have had a failure.

interesting note - these guys zero'd in on the charging system on the bike - asking several questions about the type of failure - if there was any sign of swelling to the case -

those of you who have had a failure can you describe the condition of the battery? that may not change anything but it'll be good to have all the data available...

hope this helps, i'll update w/ more info when i have it,

-matt