New speedometer ?'s - Ducati Monster Forums: Ducati Monster Motorcycle Forum

» Site Navigation
»
»
»
» Other Ducati Motorcycle sites
» Insurance
» Sponsors
» Our Partners
»ATV Reviews
»Motorcycle Games
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-14-2012, 01:15 AM   #1 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 17
Default New speedometer ?'s

I wrecked my 2011 796 and in the process scattered my speedometer. I'm looking at buying a used speedometer from another wrecked Monster. Is there anything special I need to know when doing this other than plug it in and go? Also can I reset the new speedometer/odometer to the mileage that was on my bike prior to dumping it? Any help on this topic would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks for reading!!
buck8002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 07-14-2012, 08:03 AM   #2 (permalink)
Super Moderator

 
caferacermike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 2,774
Default

I'm not positive about the newer generation but back in the day of the "MAGIC RED KEY", you couldn't swap out the dash. You had to have a matching ECU, keys, lock set, dash, and other pieces to make a swap or the ignition lock out would prevent the bike from ever running again. I think it was about $3,000 for a factory set. There was a way to have your ECU reflashed to drop the ignition lock out to use non matching parts. Maybe someone else can chime in about the newer 09+ models.

Another thing to consider would be KOSO gauges. http://www.kosonorthamerica.com/new/shop/motorcycle/ Now I'm not sure if you'll need to have the ECU flashed to drop the ignition lock out, but a few members here have installed these and saved some dough over factory items. Personally I think some of them look fantastic.
__________________
06 Paul Smart Sport Classic NFS ever.
08 S4RS Tricolore #081 NFS ever.
01 M600, aka, The Pink Monster
97 900SS CR
72 Norton Commando 750
03 KX60 with S4R rear shock,Honda CB350F, Hodaka Ace90, 3x Yam-YGS1, Yam-CS3 200, Vespa small frame, Gilera 106, Puch Sabre, Puch 50 Boy Racer, Ducati 250 bevel, Benelli 250, Benelli 360, Honda CB350T, and many more.
caferacermike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2012, 01:45 PM   #3 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 66
Default

Easy, call SOS Diagnostics (I think they are in Portland, but am sure they are located in Oregon). They reprogrammed a cluster they had to replace mine (2011 M696), mileage and all for MUCH LESS than the Ducati solution (I think I paid around $500 - $600).

Ducati wanted me to replace the lock set, cluster, and reprogram for an absurd price (somewhere around $1500 - $2000)!

By the way, I even looked into aftermarket clusters while debating what to do. The "rocket scientists" in Italy have the electronics so locked down as to preclude installation of any sort of aftermarket dash. Even the CANBUS implementation is a PITA and has not been sorted out to date amongst those communities who are fervently trying to find a solution.

This reason alone will likely inhibit my purchase of another Ducati...

Last edited by elgallo73; 07-14-2012 at 01:48 PM.
elgallo73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2012, 02:07 PM   #4 (permalink)
Super Moderator

 
caferacermike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 2,774
Default

So Elgallo, are you saying this thread never happened? http://www.ducatimonster.org/forums/...koso-dash.html

Or this one? http://www.ducatimonster.org/forums/...r-900-nyc.html

And? http://www.ducatimonster.org/forums/...aaaaaaack.html

Oh and another, http://www.ducatimonster.org/forums/...eedo-tach.html


So I wouldn't make a blanket statement that Ducati has it so locked down as to prevent installation of any sort of aftermarket dash.

I'll admit, I got lazy and stopped searching, I could've listed several more threads.
__________________
06 Paul Smart Sport Classic NFS ever.
08 S4RS Tricolore #081 NFS ever.
01 M600, aka, The Pink Monster
97 900SS CR
72 Norton Commando 750
03 KX60 with S4R rear shock,Honda CB350F, Hodaka Ace90, 3x Yam-YGS1, Yam-CS3 200, Vespa small frame, Gilera 106, Puch Sabre, Puch 50 Boy Racer, Ducati 250 bevel, Benelli 250, Benelli 360, Honda CB350T, and many more.
caferacermike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2012, 06:49 PM   #5 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 66
Default

Quote:
So Elgallo, are you saying this thread never happened?
Apparently, you did not read my post, nor the OP's initial post. You will note that the bike mentioned is a 2011 M696 (mine), his is a 2011 M796, which utilize a different ECU than the threads you mentioned, which are based on Magneti Marelli ECU's.

Furthermore, this ECU (Siemens M3C) has been used in the Monster series since at least 2009 to my knowledge.

I'm making a blanket statement and standing by it, if you have been following the trend with the electronics utilized by Ducati over the previous 4-7 years it becomes apparent that there is a shift towards tighter controls over the ECU and cluster firmware/CANBUS implementation.

If you do not know what CANBUS is or the various protocols involved, much of this will likely be Swahili to you, but it is safe to say that the owner is more or less stuck with paying the "Ducati Tax" until this is resolved, at which point they will come out with something new to keep us busy...

CANBUS as implemented by Ducati does not use a "standard" message format, nor does it appear to be a direct copy of a version in use in the automotive industry (Fiat, etc.). The firmware in the ECU does not appear to use significant encryption but many of us are still scratching our heads with a "work around". I took my M696 to the shop today inquiring about tuning it following a minor modification and was informed that options are more or less limited (fuel trim, etc.). I would venture a guess this is due to restrictive environmental regulations in the EU and to some degree, the US, not to mention the obvious benefits to Ducati for owners requiring service.

20 years ago, a carburetor was a carburetor, whether in a Dodge truck or a Honda 250. There were differences to be sure, but if you could repair one, repairing another did not require much scaling. These days an ECU may utilize an entirely different set of algorithms, encryption standards, board layout, CANBUS implementation, etc. to do the same job from one vehicle to another. In other words, what I am trying to state is there is an incredible diversity of ECU's and standards from one manufacturer to another and consequently, severely limits folks like us in what we can do and cannot do with out bikes, to include adding aftermarket clusters...

Since the cluster IS PAIRED with the ECU and the bike CANNOT run without the cluster, your options are severely limited at this time...

Obviously, given that there are shops such as SOS Diagnostics, we at least have some options which do not require shelling out nearly $1,000 for an instrument cluster...

Last edited by elgallo73; 07-14-2012 at 06:55 PM.
elgallo73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2012, 07:07 PM   #6 (permalink)
Super Moderator

 
caferacermike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 2,774
Default

Now see that is a much better detailed reply. I still wouldn't claim that your original post covered all that info, it sure did this time. I don't think your original post makes any attempt at all to separate different models, the original post is incomplete and excluded previous models. In the second reply you've singled out the later models. What you are saying then is the statement is only true for the latest generation. Then in fact making a blanket statement, such as you did without specifying, would not be true and others that could read this might possibly believe your original statement might be "fact" over the previous generations in which that would actually be false information.

I'm not trying to argue, I'm trying to clarify for others that might have read your statement of, "The "rocket scientists" in Italy have the electronics so locked down as to preclude installation of any sort of aftermarket dash." and think "hey I have a such and such and one guy says it works but the other guy says he's full of shit". So as a "blanket statement" then it's only true on the newer generations and we have not yet verified that from the shops that reprogram ECU's?

So you don't think the new ECU's can be reprogrammed to bypass the ignition lock out? Again, not arguing, just asking. Did you call around or just get the info from your dealer?
__________________
06 Paul Smart Sport Classic NFS ever.
08 S4RS Tricolore #081 NFS ever.
01 M600, aka, The Pink Monster
97 900SS CR
72 Norton Commando 750
03 KX60 with S4R rear shock,Honda CB350F, Hodaka Ace90, 3x Yam-YGS1, Yam-CS3 200, Vespa small frame, Gilera 106, Puch Sabre, Puch 50 Boy Racer, Ducati 250 bevel, Benelli 250, Benelli 360, Honda CB350T, and many more.
caferacermike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2012, 07:22 PM   #7 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 66
Default

Just for fun, here is what information is passed by the ECU to the cluster on a post 2009 Monster:

- Speed data from the Bosch M4 ABS (if equipped), by the way, I was surprised to find that the ABS module is NOT on the CANBUS shared by the cluster and ECU (although the M4 ABS module DOES have this capability).

- Engine temperature
- Ambient air temperature
- Tachometer
- Neutral
- Check engine
- ABS disable/malfunction

The cluster on one of these models NOT only provides:

- The ability to disable ABS
- DTC on the 1100
- Security features associated with the transponder in the keylock (ECU disable)

BUT ALSO provides the external barometric reference for the fuel trim! (Yes, there is a barometer on the board, I found it myself on mine one evening trying to understand the darned thing, this is mentioned in the workshop manual as well)...

In other words, the cluster does MUCH MORE than just display data!

The best part, this data is passed over a bus, but the the bus protocol is proprietary. Consequently, the aftermarket gauges (Koso, etc.) which do not understand the CANBUS protocol cannot just be "wired in".

Eventually, it is possible the aftermarket will have some sort of "middle man" embedded system which will connect to the CANBUS and provide the ability to connect a Koso or similar gauge to a Monster OR will provide CANBUS capability (but watch out for the cost, licensing fees are EXPENSIVE!)...
elgallo73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2012, 07:38 PM   #8 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 66
Default

Sorry caferacermike, I posted while you were posting. Here is what I know (and I don't know much):

The folks at Ducatidiag (http://ducatidiag.xooit.com/index.php) are working on this and there are some bright minds doing their best to provide a solution.

I played a minor role, supplying some board photos (of the cluster) and whatever insight I had to offer and although my knowledge of machine language, networking, and encryption is very limited compared to the talent tackling this issue, it would appear to be a very "uphill battle".

I called a couple of companies who specialize in reprogramming Ducati ECU's (cannot remember who now) and was informed that you CANNOT program the ECU to start WITHOUT the cluster AT THIS TIME (emphasis here).

The cluster is paired with the ECU in some fashion. It appears from some of the preliminary data that the ECU expects some sort of "handshake" before it will allow starting of the bike.

I called several different shops (not dealers, at least 3 or 4, a couple on the east coast and at least one on the west coast) and was informed that this was not possible.

It is obvious that some outfits (at least SOS Diagnostics) are privy to information and/or software that we do not have and consequently are able to do various things, such as reprogram clusters (they put the correct mileage on mine).

The datasheets and other information on the CPU's in the ECU and the cluster are readily available. What is not so readily available is how Ducati implemented the software to make the them work. One could reverse engineer a firmware image, but by the time you finish, it could be 10 or 15 years from now and the model is already "obsolete". Making things even more difficult is the manner in which information is passed on the bus.

I'm not interested in bypassing controls which might limit exhaust emissions but would just like to add an aftermarket dash. The manner in which CANBUS is implemented by Ducati is closed and privately held, thus limiting my ability to modify my bike. Many others are in the same boat.

This issue will HOPEFULLY be resolved and there is progress being made. Until then we are left to just sit back and wait...
elgallo73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.2

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Motorcycle News, Videos and Reviews
Honda Grom Forum Harley Davidson Forum Honda 600RR Kawasaki Forum Yamaha R6 Forum Yamaha FZ-09 Forum
1199 Panigale Forum Roadglide Forum Honda CBR1000 Forum Vulcan Forum Yamaha R1 Forum Yamaha R3 Forum
Ducati Monster Forum Harley Forums Honda CBR250R Forum ZX10R Forum Star Raider Forum Yamaha Viking Forum
Suzuki GSXR Forum V-Rod Forums Honda Shadow Forum Kawasaki Motorcycle Forum Star Warrior Forum KTM Duke 390 Forum
SV650 Forum BMW S1000RR Forum Honda Fury Forum Kawasaki Versys Forum Drag Racing Forum Ducati 899 Panigale Forum
Suzuki V-Strom BMW K1600 Triumph Forum Victory Forums Sportbikes BMW NineT Forum
Volusia Forum BMW F800 Forum Triumph 675 Forum MV Agusta Forum HD Street Forum Suzuki GW250 Forum
Yamaha Motorcycles Victory Gunner Forum Honda Vultus Forum HD LiveWire Forum